Israeli Jews should go back to Europe. What do the psychoanalysts say?

@bijouxbroussard ^^this^^^. It is not a simple problem, and there are no simple solutions

@bijouxbroussard True. To add to your comparison about Native Americans, there came a point where Native Americans came to accept the reality that faced them, however unfair and egregious. ❤️ Something that interests me is how something can be both factual and fantasy. I am saying that the view of Jews as intruders in Palestine has a factual basis but it also has a fantastic archetypal quality.

@flipper1966 Because they would’ve gotten in trouble for attempting to take back what had been their land. The world would certainly not be arming them and encouraging them to resettle properties and push people living here now out.

@bijouxbroussard Remote association. I have a six year older sister so that when I was born she was 6 years old. She claims she remembers an occasion where my father was taking a bath, I was laying in my crib as an infant and screaming my head off. She claims my father became enraged because I was interfering with his relaxation time in the tub, he stormed out of the bathroom into my bedroom buck naked and beat me to silence me. I told my therapist about this and my therapist said that my sister's recollection has to be a fantasy. The therapist said my sister can't possibly remember that incident from when she was 6 years old. What strikes me is that if my sister's recollection is fantasy, it's a fantasy that matches reality in that my father did have a violent temper and used to beat me when I was a kid. The point of my post is related to that. Even though the Jews' actions in Palestine support the view that Jews are invaders there, it is a truth that can match an unconsious fantastic, archetypal image of Jews as "intruders." That's where anti-Semitism comes in; in some people the reality situation, namely, the facts of Jews' intrusion into Palestine support a reasonable view of Jews as invaders in Palestine, underlying the reality basis of their opinion can be an unconscious mythical or archetypal factor that drives the emotional intensity of their factual conclusions.

Along the same lines. The President of the United States, let's say Trump, is an authority figure. That's a fact. A person might unconsciously associate the President with her own father, who is also an authority figure. Let's say such a person hated her father and also loathes Donald Trump, for example. The woman's hatred of Trump is reasonable and factually supported, but it can be that her hatred of Trump is driven by an unconsious factor, that is, her hatred of her father.

@bijouxbroussard Native Americans are brown so no one would like that here

@SW-User Yeah, I suspect you’re right about that. 🙁

@bijouxbroussard ❤️

@trollslayer Understood.

@bijouxbroussard
I'm still thinking about your comparison. It's interesting. What's intriguing to me is that Native Americans are usually compared to Palestinians (both indigenous to the land), while the white ancestors of Americans with "established homes" are compared to Jewish immigrants to Palestine, both seen as white colonists. You've turned that conventional comparison on its head. Any thoughts?

@flipper1966 If one accepts the premise that the ancestors of today’s Jewish settlers originally lived on that land (which is how they justify pushing the Palestinians out), isn’t it hypocritical that the world (and particularly our country) finds that acceptable even though they’d never permit our indigenous people to do the same ?

@bijouxbroussard


It's interesting that Arabs were complaining that Jewish immigrants to Palestine were "pushing Arabs out" even when that was not really true. The British Peel Commission report issued in July 1937 essentially makes that point. It makes you wonder if Arabs were concerned about "being pushed out" of their land or the fact that they were being pushed out by Jews -- which would raise a question of anti-Semitism.

@bijouxbroussard I agree. What got my attention is that you flipped the conventional comparison to say something ingenious. THAT WAS VERY CLEVER!! ❤️👌

@bijouxbroussard Except it's not that simple. The current left-wing narrative views Israeli Jews as white invaders and colonizers, and Palestinians as brown indigenous. This glosses over the reality, where there was always a Jewish community in that area since antiquity, that European Jews were, in many cases, refugees, and that over half of Israeli Jews are Mizrahi, who came to Israel when their communities in the Arab world were ethnically cleansed. On top of that, many Palestinians are descended from people who immigrated to what is now Israel and the West Bank from the surrounding countries at the same time European Jews began arriving. So both groups are composed of indigenous and immigrant backgrounds.

Even going with the simplistic "Jewish immigrants displacing Arabs," wasn't the Arab response of not wanting their communities altered by outsiders, no different from MAGA racists complaining about "hordes of illegal immigrants" doing the same thing in the U.S.? Why are MAGAs "deplorable" but equally racist Arabs of a century ago weren't? Shouldn't the Arabs have opened their communities to Jewish refugees as we expect white Americans to do with Latin American refugees? How do we feel about MAGAs who tell Central Americans to "go back where you came from?"

@LeopoldBloom pretty good description of how complicated this issue is.

@LeopoldBloom Understand, please, that I’m not on any "left-wing" band wagon here. I’m asking questions and trying to get information. I’m well aware that there is racism from Arabs and there always has been. The thing is, there’s also racism from Israel and people like Netanyahu, but apparently I’m supposed to ignore that. I’ve always known there were black African Jews, not converts, but people who have lived by Jewish law for centuries. But in Israel, they’re not treated the same. I know what it means in my country when black people are treated differently. 😞
But speaking of MAGA, meet Yaakov Fauci

@bijouxbroussard @LeopoldBloom I often wonder about the following hypothetical question. Let's say it wasn't Jews who migrated to Palestine but rather an equal number of Muslims from the Indian subcontinent fleeing British-ruled India -- a people with a different language, different culture, and members of a different race. Would the indigenous Arabs in Palestine have also viewed these Indian Muslims as "intruders" as the Jews were viewed?

@flipper1966 Very possibly. They’ve been considered so in Europe, the United States and Australia.

@bijouxbroussard But the two peoples I refer to share the Muslim religion. I wonder if that fact would change anything.

@flipper1966 Only they would know, but it’s certainly possible. After all, the Ethiopian Jews share a religion with the majority of people in Israel, and it hasn’t stopped them from facing a certain amount of discrimination.

@bijouxbroussard

[/quote]

In my opinion, the Jews' argument that their ancient historical connection to ancient Judea legitimizes the modern state of Israel is flimsy. But what I find interesting is that the Palestinians persistently deny Jews' ancient connection to the land. Palestinians' denial that ancient Hebrews lived on the land or that ancient Hebrews are related to modern Jews lends weight to the inference that Palestinians see that Jews' claim of the legitimacy to Israel on that basis has some merit. The Palestinians' denial of a Jewish historical connection to the land is ridiculous; it has no historical merit.

@flipper1966 But you’re jumping from point to point, and the questions I have aren’t getting answered. Apparently neither are yours. I’m agreeing with those who’ve said that it’s all very complicated and unlikely to be sorted out in our lifetimes. So, with great respect to you and @LeopoldBloom, I shall withdraw from this discussion.

@bijouxbroussard Thanks for participating! You made a valuable contribution. ❤️

@bijouxbroussard There absolutely are racists on the Israeli side. However, the antisemitism on the Palestinian side (and in MENA generally) is over the top, including admiration of Hitler, children in school being taught with maps that don't show Israel on them, and calls for a new Jewish genocide. The literal meaning in Arabic of "from the river to the sea" is "from water to water, Palestine will be Arab." The implication of "free Palestine" is "judenfrei Palestine." The only thing stopping this is Israel's military superiority and the general incompetence of Hamas fighters.

I also recognize that there are people on both sides who are interested in a lasting peace. A unified state with guarantees of self-determination and security for both sides would be great, but isn't a possibility right now.

@LeopoldBloom I sent you a gift, Leopold.

@LeopoldBloom Are you familiar with the Land For All movement?

https://www.alandforall.org/english/?d=ltr