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PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
By that logic so it the US. And frankly I would say there is more concrete evidence of that sort of thing about the US.
I mean the so called "land of the free" has the world's largest prison population by any metric. And anyone who claims the US doesn't have political prisoners I have a bridge to sell them.
I mean the so called "land of the free" has the world's largest prison population by any metric. And anyone who claims the US doesn't have political prisoners I have a bridge to sell them.
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JovialPlutonian · 36-40, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow yeh ikr it’s disgusting to think humans are still so barbaric. I suppose I’ll just have to wait another lifetime
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@JovialPlutonian And unfortunately the ones doing the finger pointing are usually the biggest hypocrites.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Can you give me an example of a political prisoner being held in the US.
The crime bill and the harsh drug laws passed in the 80s and 90s led to longer sentences for convicted criminals.
Recently there has been sentence reform and pardons which should help that problem. In addition the release of non violent offenders. High crime rates are a very important reason for the high prison population.
Can not compare to the rivers of blood shed in the name of socialism in the past two centuries.
The crime bill and the harsh drug laws passed in the 80s and 90s led to longer sentences for convicted criminals.
Recently there has been sentence reform and pardons which should help that problem. In addition the release of non violent offenders. High crime rates are a very important reason for the high prison population.
Can not compare to the rivers of blood shed in the name of socialism in the past two centuries.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker Lol. Tired anti communist cliches and bullshit excuses. Unfortunately crime statistics don't back that up and conveniently ignores the very American industry of for profit prisons that lobby for more and more extreme sentences for more and more offenses.
As for political prisoners. Right off the top of my head is Leonard Pelltier.
As for political prisoners. Right off the top of my head is Leonard Pelltier.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Haven’t you heard about the recent prison reforms and release of thousands of non violent convicts?
Private prisons are under big time scrutiny right now due to some prisoner complaints and several escapes.
Peltier provide numerous alibis to several different people. He could never keep his story straight. He was convicted of killing two FBI agents who had contact wounds.
I don’t think he was the only one involved but he was probably their (several alibis).
He is eligible for parole. Obama denied his last appeal for commutation. Maybe he will get out soon.
He is not a political prisoner. He was convicted for murder. He might be wrongfully convicted. But he is not locked up for speaking out against the government or owning a rock and roll, album, or painting a mural, or being a Christian.
Are there any others?
Private prisons are under big time scrutiny right now due to some prisoner complaints and several escapes.
Peltier provide numerous alibis to several different people. He could never keep his story straight. He was convicted of killing two FBI agents who had contact wounds.
I don’t think he was the only one involved but he was probably their (several alibis).
He is eligible for parole. Obama denied his last appeal for commutation. Maybe he will get out soon.
He is not a political prisoner. He was convicted for murder. He might be wrongfully convicted. But he is not locked up for speaking out against the government or owning a rock and roll, album, or painting a mural, or being a Christian.
Are there any others?
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker Lol. Right. Because if you are accused of a crime that magically makes it not political. It has been known for decades the evidence against him was fabricated and I would probably not know what to say to cops determined to frame me either.
And even if thousands are released with a prison population in the millions that is called a PR stunt. And spare me the claim that anyone is reforming for profit prisons.
And even if thousands are released with a prison population in the millions that is called a PR stunt. And spare me the claim that anyone is reforming for profit prisons.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow What about his many alibis ? Some to reporters. And who said these things About fake evidence that are so well known? See, that would make him wrongfully convicted. Not a political prisoner. Remember, he is not locked up for painting, a mural, owning a guns and roses album, being Christian or being Muslim or being gay or Buddhist etc etc etc
I’m not claiming for profit prisons are under pressure. It’s true. Here in my state there are two perfect examples. The conditions are questionable, the employees are piss poor and they endanger the nearby communities when these dangerous prisoners escape.
I admit the prison population is high, ridiculously high, but the sentencing laws and such are the cause. Plus, the vast majority are locked up for their actions and decisions. They should have committed their crimes in your country. Not in the US
I’m not claiming for profit prisons are under pressure. It’s true. Here in my state there are two perfect examples. The conditions are questionable, the employees are piss poor and they endanger the nearby communities when these dangerous prisoners escape.
I admit the prison population is high, ridiculously high, but the sentencing laws and such are the cause. Plus, the vast majority are locked up for their actions and decisions. They should have committed their crimes in your country. Not in the US
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker So not having an alibi is all you need to convict of first degree murder? Interesting. I hope you make sure to have receipts for everything and look directly into every security camera you pass. As early as the 90s the original ballistics evidence was proven to be fake. But 20 years later he is kept locked up. And I guess you are just going to conveniently ignore that the government went there deliberately looking to provoke a fight with AIM for an excuse to crush a political group? I don't think getting two FBI agents killed was part of the plan but they were looking for a fight and a reason to drop the hammer. Unless you are naive enough to think groups like AIM and the Panthers were treated totally above board.
As for the private prisons. It is an industry in the billions of dollars so at most they will get a fine which in practice much like every other billion dollar industry it amounts to paying a fee for the privilege of committing illegal acts.
As for the private prisons. It is an industry in the billions of dollars so at most they will get a fine which in practice much like every other billion dollar industry it amounts to paying a fee for the privilege of committing illegal acts.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Where does it say he evidence was proven to be fabricated? Other than from his followers.
He did have an alibi. He had many alibis which were not even similar. That proves none are true. He was convicted by a jury. Which means every one of them were convinced..
Again if what you are saying is true it would make him falsely convicted. I would think Obama and his brilliant attorney general been able to get their hands on this ‘proven’ information and would have commuted his sentence.
Still not a political prisoner.
Political prisoner, like they have in Cuba. China, Venezuela. Looking for a political prisoner.
What does keeping receipts have to do with lying multiple times to multiple people about the most important day in ones life.
Political prisoners
Is it the fact privately run prisons make lots of money that bothers you. They are a business. They still only house convicted felons all of which are there because of their actions and are still in the legal system, still protected and eligible for appeals.
They are constantly under scrutiny
You make very broad generalizations and compare my country to criminal socialist dictatorships. Remember. We have our bill of rights. We have three branches of government and a very strong opposition. We have strong states rights each state has a three branch government. Most of all we have a population of about 330,000,000 independent people,
California has a higher population than your country. We have hundreds of different cultures.
This is a very complicated country with very complicated problems. Still, anyone can freely criticize the gov, practice any religion, Burn any book, and be as prosperous as their hard work makes them.
Just don’t do things which are illegal. Our laws have to change, no one should be imprisoned for having a little weed for example.
He did have an alibi. He had many alibis which were not even similar. That proves none are true. He was convicted by a jury. Which means every one of them were convinced..
Again if what you are saying is true it would make him falsely convicted. I would think Obama and his brilliant attorney general been able to get their hands on this ‘proven’ information and would have commuted his sentence.
Still not a political prisoner.
Political prisoner, like they have in Cuba. China, Venezuela. Looking for a political prisoner.
What does keeping receipts have to do with lying multiple times to multiple people about the most important day in ones life.
Political prisoners
Is it the fact privately run prisons make lots of money that bothers you. They are a business. They still only house convicted felons all of which are there because of their actions and are still in the legal system, still protected and eligible for appeals.
They are constantly under scrutiny
You make very broad generalizations and compare my country to criminal socialist dictatorships. Remember. We have our bill of rights. We have three branches of government and a very strong opposition. We have strong states rights each state has a three branch government. Most of all we have a population of about 330,000,000 independent people,
California has a higher population than your country. We have hundreds of different cultures.
This is a very complicated country with very complicated problems. Still, anyone can freely criticize the gov, practice any religion, Burn any book, and be as prosperous as their hard work makes them.
Just don’t do things which are illegal. Our laws have to change, no one should be imprisoned for having a little weed for example.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker It was verified by an independent lab 20 plus years ago.
And according to you there are no innocent people convicted ever. Sure.
And you have to do some serious mental and ethical gymnastics to disregard the real reason why those FBI agents were even there in the first place. And you literally just rambled off the enemies of the week list with nothing to back that but hearsay. But sure.
Both bother me as does the blatant hypocrisy.
No I am not. I am making a statement of fact based on the actions of your country. And you are offended because you image that being the same as being compared to a Cold War cliche.
Please. Skip the grad school civics lesson propaganda. The US has political prisoners and concentration camps. I am sorry that shatters you illusions about some magical land.
And anyone who has been alive for the last 40 years knows anyone with money can break the law and pay a fee for the privilege.
And according to you there are no innocent people convicted ever. Sure.
And you have to do some serious mental and ethical gymnastics to disregard the real reason why those FBI agents were even there in the first place. And you literally just rambled off the enemies of the week list with nothing to back that but hearsay. But sure.
Both bother me as does the blatant hypocrisy.
No I am not. I am making a statement of fact based on the actions of your country. And you are offended because you image that being the same as being compared to a Cold War cliche.
Please. Skip the grad school civics lesson propaganda. The US has political prisoners and concentration camps. I am sorry that shatters you illusions about some magical land.
And anyone who has been alive for the last 40 years knows anyone with money can break the law and pay a fee for the privilege.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow where are the concentration camps? Where are the political prisoners?
The US is not a criminal socialist dictatorship. No matter who told you that.
The civics was not a lesson it was just a reminder of the redundant checks and balances we have in place.
You are very wrong, I never said no one can be wrongfully convicted. There are probably thousands of wrongfully convicted prisoners. There is prosecutorial misconduct along with police corruption. It happens.
If this evidence existed, I do not think Eric Holder would have missed it and he would have been freed by Obama. Eric Holder has a history of defending accused domestic terrorists and had great success freeing Macheteros .
It makes little sense. Obama pardoned like 600 people. Maybe the Innocence Project will take his case. Besides, he may be wrongfully convicted but he is not a political prisoner.
The wealthy are treated differently by the court system because the can afford better legal representation. That is just a fact. There are plenty of very wealthy people in prison. I actually know two personally.
I do really want to know where the concentration camps are and who the political prisoners are.
The US is not a criminal socialist dictatorship. No matter who told you that.
The civics was not a lesson it was just a reminder of the redundant checks and balances we have in place.
You are very wrong, I never said no one can be wrongfully convicted. There are probably thousands of wrongfully convicted prisoners. There is prosecutorial misconduct along with police corruption. It happens.
If this evidence existed, I do not think Eric Holder would have missed it and he would have been freed by Obama. Eric Holder has a history of defending accused domestic terrorists and had great success freeing Macheteros .
It makes little sense. Obama pardoned like 600 people. Maybe the Innocence Project will take his case. Besides, he may be wrongfully convicted but he is not a political prisoner.
The wealthy are treated differently by the court system because the can afford better legal representation. That is just a fact. There are plenty of very wealthy people in prison. I actually know two personally.
I do really want to know where the concentration camps are and who the political prisoners are.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker Gitmo and the ICE "detention" centres.
I gave you one example and you made every excuse imaginable.
It certainly is not a dictatorship but it is a criminal oligarchy.
It is cute that you think the actual charges matter or the evidence. When you are locked up as part of a pretext to crush a civil rights group the charges don't matter.
And you think the guy who attacked Bush for torture and executions and then turned around and did more if it was going to do the right thing?
A few kings ended up in jail or executed. That hardly means the feudal system worked for the people.
And clearly you don't want to know because you just make one excuse after another.
I gave you one example and you made every excuse imaginable.
It certainly is not a dictatorship but it is a criminal oligarchy.
It is cute that you think the actual charges matter or the evidence. When you are locked up as part of a pretext to crush a civil rights group the charges don't matter.
And you think the guy who attacked Bush for torture and executions and then turned around and did more if it was going to do the right thing?
A few kings ended up in jail or executed. That hardly means the feudal system worked for the people.
And clearly you don't want to know because you just make one excuse after another.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow You nake faceless statements. Who are the political prisoners???? Where are the concentration camps?????
Yes actual charges are important. We have something in America called the bill of rights.
Due process, protection against warrantless searches. The right to remain silent. All protected by the constitution. And thousands of civil right attorneys at the ready.
You just don’t realize how difficult it is to get a conviction. It is not a whim. I am, from personal experience way too familiar with the process.
To arrest, there has to be probable cause a crime has been committed and the arrestee committed the crime. Or the person can be indicted by a grand jury. A jury of everyday citizens, not cops, not lawyers, not judges. There is immediate access to defense, free if need be.
There are then hearings, evidentiary hearings, identification hearings, initial appearances, bond reduction hearings, the defense constantly making motions to dismiss.
No one is ever picked up and locked up. That Would fall apart at IA court later the same day.
The person then has to be found guilty in trial by a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt. Very high standard, very difficult.
People do get wrongfully convicted but it is due to prosectorial misconduct and police corruption. It is not systemic and corrupt cops go to jail here.
This is not Cuba or China
So where are the concentration camps?
Who are all these political prisoners?
Yes actual charges are important. We have something in America called the bill of rights.
Due process, protection against warrantless searches. The right to remain silent. All protected by the constitution. And thousands of civil right attorneys at the ready.
You just don’t realize how difficult it is to get a conviction. It is not a whim. I am, from personal experience way too familiar with the process.
To arrest, there has to be probable cause a crime has been committed and the arrestee committed the crime. Or the person can be indicted by a grand jury. A jury of everyday citizens, not cops, not lawyers, not judges. There is immediate access to defense, free if need be.
There are then hearings, evidentiary hearings, identification hearings, initial appearances, bond reduction hearings, the defense constantly making motions to dismiss.
No one is ever picked up and locked up. That Would fall apart at IA court later the same day.
The person then has to be found guilty in trial by a jury, beyond a reasonable doubt. Very high standard, very difficult.
People do get wrongfully convicted but it is due to prosectorial misconduct and police corruption. It is not systemic and corrupt cops go to jail here.
This is not Cuba or China
So where are the concentration camps?
Who are all these political prisoners?
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker I am done. You just ignore literally anything that doesn't fit your fantasy version of the US which has not been real for a very long time if it ever was.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow You have no facts. I have given you many. You are creating a fantasy that never existed here. Neither of us will be convinced, I can be with facts.
For now We must agree to disagree
For now We must agree to disagree
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker I have presented facts but you insist on explaining them away with patriotic slogans.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow You have given me no facts. Zero
Where are the camps? Where are the political prisoners. Simple
Where are the camps? Where are the political prisoners. Simple
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker Easy not to see what you actively ignore.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Easy to make baseless unhinged statements you can’t back up with any facts.
Facts. Facts???????? Facts????? If it is your opinion. Say so. I can respect that.
Otherwise, you are just repeating slogans and propaganda.
I gave you facts to support everything I said. You gave me zero facts.
Facts. Facts???????? Facts????? If it is your opinion. Say so. I can respect that.
Otherwise, you are just repeating slogans and propaganda.
I gave you facts to support everything I said. You gave me zero facts.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker That would be you. Repeating slogans as if they are self evident facts. Blatant propaganda. The Shining City on the hill and all that nonsense that if ever true hasn't been true in decades.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Facts?
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker I have pointed out what America really is, not a feel good TV movie.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow You May have pointed out your opinion but you failed to back it up with any facts.
Facts are truth.
Facts are truth.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Deserthiker What makes this even more absurd right now. Is if half of your fables about a just society were true BLM would literally have no reason to exist.
Deserthiker · 61-69, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow BLM is based on a false narrative and has a political agenda. The founders are self admitting Marxists. The statistics are overwhelming as far as blm is concerned
I never said this place is a just society. I wrote about the unfair laws and wrongfully convicted prisoners and the fact rich people have better lawyers.
Not a just society maybe one of the most just but not perfect.
You didn’t say this was an unjust society. You said there were concentration camps and political prisoners and failed to provide any facts to back up your statements
I never said this place is a just society. I wrote about the unfair laws and wrongfully convicted prisoners and the fact rich people have better lawyers.
Not a just society maybe one of the most just but not perfect.
You didn’t say this was an unjust society. You said there were concentration camps and political prisoners and failed to provide any facts to back up your statements
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