So is this the same God I read about in the Old Testament.

@Adstar Your opinion. Much like the Jewish view of Christianity.

@DalisMoustache I am either correct or wrong... You decide in what you will accept and what you will reject.. In the end you have the freedom to make your own choice.. But remember freedom of choice does not means freedom from the consequences of those choices..

@Adstar Grace is [i]given[/i]. We live in God's love irrespective of any "accepting" or "rejecting" according to our own lights.

What is "correct" is God's love. It is mediated in infinite ways beyond our own understanding, our own particular beliefs. We do not set the parameters.

@DalisMoustache [quote]@Adstar Grace is given. We live in God's love irrespective of any "accepting" or "rejecting" according to our own lights. [/quote]

NO.. For a gift to be had it [b]MUST be ACCEPTED when OFFERED[/b]... Those who reject the Word of God reject His Atonement.. The lying doctrine of universalism will lead many to the eternal lake of fire.. People who love their unrighteousness will never acknowledge their sins and will be offended when they are offered the gift the Atonement of the LORD Jesus. When a person loves their sin they mock any offer of forgiveness for what they consider to be good..

@Adstar Good for you. Fight true grace to the very end, then you will be all the more surprised by joy!

The points you make are in fact answered definitively, from the earliest Church Fathers up to the 20th centuries greatest theologians.

It is not a question if "loving sin", another of your confused red herrings and accusations.

@DalisMoustache [quote]@Adstar Good for you. Fight true grace to the very end, then you will be all the more surprised by joy![/quote]

True Grace is not the forgiveness of one who is proud of the evil they have done... Everyone knows the process of forgiveness.. First the wrong doer MUST acknowledge their wrong and ask for forgiveness from the one they have wronged.. Then the one offended can justly decide to forgive the one who has done them wrong..

Repentance must be part of the process of receiving Grace.. With God as well as with our fellow man..

The proud resist conviction but the humble bow their heads in regret when their sins are exposed.. That's why the Meek shall inherit the earth And God resisteth the Proud..

(Isaiah 57:15) "For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabited eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones."

@Adstar We are born in Grace. Chosen before the foundation of the world. It is a [i]realisation[/i] not a decision to accept it or not.

Thomas Merton:-

[i]The reification of faith. Real meaning of the phrase we are saved by faith = we are saved by Christ, whom we encounter in faith. But constant disputation about faith has made Christians become obsessed with faith almost as an object, at least as an experience, a "thing" and in concentrating upon it they lose sight of Christ. Whereas faith without the encounter with Christ and without His presence is less than nothing. It is the deadest of dead works, an act elicited in a moral and existential void. To seek to believe that one believes, and arbitrarily to decree that one believes, and then to conclude that this gymnastic has been blessed by Christ - this is pathological Christianity. And a Christianity of works. One has this mental gymnastic in which to trust. One is safe, one possesses the psychic key to salvation......[/i]

Further:-

[i]But the magicians keep turning the Cross to their own purpose. Yes, it is for them too a sign of contradiction: the awful blasphemy of the religious magician who makes the Cross contradict mercy. This of course is the ultimate temptation of Christianity. To say that Christ has locked all doors, has given one answer, settled everything and departed, leaving all life enclosed in the frightful consistency of a system outside of which there is seriousness and damnation, inside of which there is the intolerable flippancy of the saved - while nowhere is there any place left for the mystery of the freedom of divine mercy which alone is truly serious, and worthy of being taken seriously.[/i]

You seek to set parameters to Mercy, to Grace. You in effect limit God's Love. You are spiritually blind to seeing this.

@DalisMoustache [quote]@Adstar We are born in Grace. Chosen before the foundation of the world. It is a realisation not a decision to accept it or not. [/quote]

Gods predestination is based on His Foreknowledge of all history.. His foreknowledge of our lives before we where even born.. Yes He foreknew who would accept His will at the foundation of creation and yeah He already had the names of those who shall have eternal life in His book of Life..

But that book does [u]NOT[/u] include the names of all human beings who shall have existence.. Why don't you read the Bible for your beliefs instead of professional theologians who tickle your ears with doctrines tailored to what you wish was the will of God??

(Revelation 20:12-15) "And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written[big] in the books[/big], according to their works. {13} And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. {14} And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. {15} And [big]whosoever was [u]not[/u] found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire[/big]."

Did you get that? ""Whosoever was [u]NOT[/u] found written in the book of Life""

Therefore there are people NOT written in the book of Life .. People who will end up being cast into the eternal Lake of Fire.. So the doctrine of universalism IS A LIE...

@Adstar I can’t see how this helps the poor people caught up in this mess.

@Adstar Well, that is YOUR understanding. Flawed, as the reading of "That All Shall Be Saved" by David Bentley Hart would reveal to the thinking and entirely moral mind. But as you say, your choice.

@SW-User Anyone who believes Jesus and who trusts in the Atonement He secured, has the peace of mind that comes from knowing they have eternal life in Gods perfect eternal existence.. No matter if they face being abused, tortured and hacked to death by devout muslims on earth.. The sufferings of this world are bearable if one has Hope for eternity.. But if one has no eternal hope.. How horrible is it to face such a terrible ending as these people in Israel and Gaza have faced and are facing these days...

Sadly most of the poor people caught up in this mess do not trust in The LORD Jesus.. So they face this terrible sutuation without any hope for a better future.. a Better life..

@SW-User Well, obviously it does not. The first step will always be to see [i]clearly and without equivocation [/i] that what comes to one shall come to all.

When the human heart divides according to its own beliefs then a hell of sorts will always follow.

[i]Truth is inherently fluid - open, alive, metaphorical, and inclusive; dogma is inherently rigid - closed, fixed, literal, and exclusive
[/i]
(Ted Biringer, in "Zen Cosmology")

@Adstar We will see on that one.
Our response should be that of Matthew 25.

@Adstar You can live within your judgements, I shall live in mine.

[quote]@SW-User

@Adstar We will see on that one.[/quote]

Oh what one?

[quote]Our response should be that of Matthew 25.[/quote]

Matthew 25 deals with many things.. What one are you pointing to specificaly?

@DalisMoustache [quote]@Adstar You can live within your judgements,[/quote]

The judgements i focus on are the judgements of the LORD.. His will be done..

@Adstar You continually presume that your OWN beliefs coincide with God's will and judgements.

You can focus.on that if you so choose.

@DalisMoustache Of course i do.. If i did not believe in what i share i would not be sharing it.. And you would not be parroting the words of men whom you agree with.. If people bring to me the Words of God to challenge my beliefs then i give them due attention and thought.. But if people just quote other men and rely on character assasination then don't ever think i would be moved by such efforts..

@Adstar Ah ha! It is "parroting" which I do, while you infer that you merely pass on the word of God.

I have read the NT right through at least 7 times, plus commentaries on many of its various books and gospels. Commentaries by various believers. I am conversant with the theologies of all the various main churches, plus some of the minor ones.

I suspect that you have only ever been exposed to a Protestant Reform Theology - which you now cannot see beyond. And obviously, from our exchanges here, you totally refuse to question or to look with an open mind at other theologies.

This is not character assassination. In fact your use of the word "parroting" exposes exactly where any assassination is taking place.

@DalisMoustache [quote]@Adstar Ah ha! It is "parroting" which I do, while you infer that you merely pass on the word of God. [/quote]

You quote men while i most often quote the scriptures.. So yeah for the most part..

Lets put it this way.. If i am doing my job well i will be quoting the will of God accurately.. The more i inject my personal thoughts and feelings the more faulty my efforts will be..

Part of being a follower of God is giving up on ones own personal thoughts of what the will of God should be, what one thinks Gods will should be.. So the less of me and the more of God the better..

[quote]
I have read the NT right through at least 7 times,[b][u] plus commentaries[/u][/b] on many of its various books and gospels.[/quote]

Yep and that's where you seem to have fallen down... Following men and what they think should be.. Things like universalism..

(Proverbs 14:12) "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death."

[quote]I suspect that you have only ever been exposed to a Protestant Reform Theology[/quote]

More projection and pasting.. I became a Christian when a friend gave me a Bible to read when i was in my early 20's and no i never joined a reformed protestant church.. Yeah a lot of protestants outwardly hold the Bible to be the ultimate authority they stand upon which makes it easier for me to discuss theology with them.. Because quoting scriptures with them often has more effect them posting scriptures to a catholic who holds the authority of men ( papal authority ) over that of the Holy Bible.. But yeah there are many protestants who never read the Bible like the catholic types and rely on their local pastor or favored online or TV preacher to tell them everything they need to know and do in regards to God..

Oh did you read the OT too? I read the Bible from start to finish and rarely has a day gone by in the last 34 years when i have not referenced the Bible or read a book or chapter..

But irrespective of How much a person has read of the scriptures.. A person reading the Bible without the guidance of the Holy Spirit will always come to the wrong conclusions about it.. In the end it is the Holy Spirit that moves one on the Way to eternal life..

[quote]from our exchanges here, you totally refuse to question or to look with an open mind at other theologies. [/quote]

I would have conversed with universalist doctrine believers over 100 times with probably over 1000 posts trading verses and cut and paste protestations from supposed ""experts"" and i never came to my conclusions about it because some reformed protestant preacher told me what to believe.. I read the Bible and it clearly states that people will be cast into the eternal lake of fire.. Scripture i have quoted to you in this interaction.. Scripture that you have ignored.. Why? because you love your doctrines above the Word of God... You love what you want to be not what God declares IS,,

[quote]with an open mind[/quote]

Oh and it is better as a human to have a guarded mind.. Guarded by the Holy Spirit.. Open minds of faulty human beings are exquisitely defenseless to deception and delusion.. Like Universalism for example..

@Adstar Sorry, you just don't get it. Whatever our interpretation of scripture it has been mediated to us by others. [i]It does not speak for itself[/i]. I have quoted men, yes, totally open about my sources. You have read "men", maybe Luther, Calvin [i]et al[/i] yet presume that the theology they have passed onto you is simply "God's Word", unmediated. Such is a false claim. You refuse to see this, or refuse to acknowledge this.

When you [i][b]do[/b][/i] see this then maybe you will surrender to Grace and the love of God. Rather than trusting in your own allegiance to a particular interpretation of a text.

@DalisMoustache I reject the T.U.L.I.P doctrines ofCalvinism.Yeah i have had many discussions with Calvinists seeking to bring them out of the 5 pillars of calvinism.

Luther served a purpose, He started the process to liberate the Word of God so that the common man could eventually read the Word of God for himself so as to overcome the suppression of the Bible by the catholic works salvation cult of Rome. But Luther was a catholic seeking simply some limited reforms within the catholic religion. Later writings of Luther revealed the hate he had for the Jews,, how he never believed Jesus who told us to love even those we consider our enemies..

You assume way to much about me.. You're so focused on putting me into a reformed protestant box or a Calvinist box so you can burn that box with me stuffed into it,, but time and time again you fail and only reveal the fake projection you are desperate to build up in your mind of me.. Every time you do this you just expose yourself as a false accuser playing a vain useless game of mud throwing..

You should fear the LORD and stop using this tactic against a believer in the LORD Jesus..

@Adstar No, I presume nothing as such. I merely point out the FACT that whatever our theology it has been mediated to us by others. If not Luther and Calvin, then others.

If this is not acknowledged, you are left with some purely circular claim that goes something like:- "I am a true believer therefore the spirit guides me into the true interpretation". Purely circular and amounting to nothing more that self- justification.

Where is my "projection"?

@DalisMoustache [quote]@Adstar No, I presume nothing as such. I merely point out the FACT that whatever our theology it has been mediated to us by others. If not Luther and Calvin, then others. [/quote]

Yeah the Other is the Holy Spirit.. You had a few goes trying new boxes to fit me into and you failed miserably.. Why because you do not know the Truth..

[quote]"I am a true believer therefore the spirit guides me into the true interpretation"[/quote]

You don;t know how the LORD Works.. You don't seem to know that God foreknows who will accept His gospel Way of salvation and who won't.. God can personally intervene with someone He foreknows will come to accept His truth by helping Him along the way to salvation.. Everyone being lead to salvation goes through a series of steps.. God impresses upon the individual to take the first step and if the person accepts the first basic truth they are elevated and then God impresses upon then another step.. This process goes on until the person comes to a step that they refuse to take and therefore they are given over to deceptions and delusions or they continue up the stairway to finally come to the step of salvation by the Atonement of the LORD Jesus.. Sadly most people come to a step they cannot accept and therefore they will never enter into eternity with The LORD Jesus..

Jesus is the Lamb of God.. and just like the first lamb of the first Passover back in Egypt His meat / Word Must be consumed / accepted totally for the angel of death to Passover that household / for one to be saved from the second death.. But most people come to a hard to accept truth.. And listen to the deceiving doctrines of false messengers because they sound better to their ears and to their opinion of what God should do and who God should be..

@DalisMoustache [quote]We are born in Grace. Chosen before the foundation of the world. It is arealisationnot a decision to accept it or not.[/quote]

God's grace is available to all, but some will neither accept it nor want it. We are [b]not[/b] "born in grace". Grace is a gift [u]at the acceptance of it[/u]. The Bible is very clear that grace is not accepted by some. John 1:12 confirms that:

[b][c=BF0000]John 1:12 - "But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."[/c][/b]