Is the sealing of the saints in Revelation 7 something to happen in future only?

@Adstar LOL! Just as well the innocents were at least matched if not out-numbered by those who had acted as God had equipped them to do - by procreating!

@ArishMell Your comment makes no sense to me ArishMell... Where you trying to be funny?

@Adstar [i]Of course I was joking[/i] - I was satirising the point about "innocents" made by some shaman a couple of millennia ago!

:-)

To explain the joke, I don't know the Hebrew population of the time, but had [i]all[/i] of them stayed "innocent", not just the oh-so-self-virtuous or merely unlucky bachelors, their society would have died out!

The fantasy seems to imply that only the male ones of the tribes' virgins are worth God's time; but it was written in a strongly patriarchal society.

I do realise some people see nothing humorous in religion..... obviously I don't know if that applies to you.

@ArishMell The topic is about prophecies of future events.. It is not about ancient Hebrew society..

And there are always innocents in every population in the world.. They just don't remain innocent for very long..

@Adstar I know it is, with the convenience of no stated future so even our great(^n)-grandchildren might still not experience whatever is actually "predicted". So it remains a fantasy - despite humanity doing its best to wreck itself without any Divine intervention (except perhaps to use that as an excuse).

How big is '[i]n[/i]'? Well, guessing a mean 5 generations per century, gives roughly 25 generations for the BCE so far; and these end-times predictions have still not happened.

After all, it was written for a particular culture in its own time, by someone who could hardly have known much about the world beyond the Mediterranean lands and Asia Minor; let alone predicted anything 2000+ years beyond his own times.

Oh, I know virgins exist everywhere, but most people don't stay "innocent" throughout life!

I wonder if 'innocent' was translated, edited and interpreted to suit the Mediaeval religious authorities, from a Hebrew or Greek word originally meaning something else, so it became our automatic opposite of 'guilt'.

@ArishMell I never stated that the 144,000 where adults.. No they are innocent decendants of Israel that will be saved and protected through the end times global disasters foretold in the Book of Revelation.. And no human being has ever had the power to predict the future.. God has that power and He inspires men to record the prophecies He gives them to record..

@Adstar Do you suppose another child is to born for ruling all nations with an iron rode? ( Rev12:4.)
Do you suppose the announcement "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth is not applicable now? (Rev 14:13)

@fellowchristian [quote]@Adstar Do you suppose another child is to born for ruling all nations with an iron rode? ( Rev12:4.)[/quote]

Do you suppose you could simply deal with what i have stated and not try to get me to respond to positons i have not preached..

The above point has no bearing on the discussion about the 144.000.. Jesus is not one of the 144,000 Jesus will return in a similar way He left.. He ascended into heaven and will descend from heaven when he returns.. He will not be born again as a baby to a woman on earth.. But again this has nothing to do with the 144,000..

[quote]Do you suppose the announcement "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth is not applicable now? (Rev 14:13)[/quote]

Why would you even ask that? Of course i believe that anyone who dies a true Christian is and will be blessed.. You clearly are not reading my posts.. Nothing i have stated would suggest that i disagree with the Revelation 14 quote..

@Adstar Ah, OK. Thank you for clarifying that point, but what of everyone else? The prophesy seems to be promises for a select few.

@Adstar I was simply telling you that all that is written as John's vision are not things prophesied for happening in future.
The sealing of the saints, it is a process that was, and it is now and will continue till that moment four angels are released to do harm to the earth and the seas.

@ArishMell Well 144,000 is a select few in comparison to the world population.. So your right.. The confusion and sometimes offense comes in because people think that it means only 144,000 will be saved.. But that is not what the passage of the prophecy states.. The passage mentioned two different groups.. The 144,000 innocents who will be protected during the terrible end times events and another group of people ( not innocents ) who will be saved by believing in Jesus a number so big that no man would be able to count them..

The passage in question is Revelation 7:
Group 1The 144,000
Revelation 7: 3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. 4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an [c=7700B2]hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel[/c].

Group 2 The Saints saved by the shed blood of the Lamb of God who is Jesus..
(Revelation 7:9-14) "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, [c=7700B2]which [u]no man could number[/u][/c], of [c=7700B2][u]all nations[/u][/c], and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; {10} And cried with a loud voice, saying, [c=7700B2][u]Salvation to our God[/u][/c] which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. {11} And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, {12} Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. {13} And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? {14} And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, [c=7700B2][u]These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb[/u][/c]."

Note the first group is numbered and preserved through the great tribulation and they are from only the tribes of Israel..

The second group cannot be numbered and they are from all nations different languages.. These are the ones who have died because of the great tribulation and are in heaven having been saved because they believed Jesus and are waiting for the resurrection..

Now the difference of opinion between me and fellowchristian is that he believes they are all saints a.. I believe they are different groups.. the first group ""being innocents"" have no sinned and therefore at the time will not need the atoning blood of the LORD Jesus to be saved.. while the second much larger group being sinners will be covered by the Atonement of Jesus..

@fellowchristian Well i disagree with the interpretation of prophecy you have adopted in regard to these two groups i mentioned in my last post..

@Adstar The first group of 144000 is the [b]complete number [/b] of those being [b]sealed[/b] from all the 12 tribes of Israel at a given time John seeing the angel carrying the seal of God.

Read the scripture carefully.

At the given time John witnessing the angel with the seal, that angel is talking to other 4 angels. From the dialogue, it is evident that he has not completed his task of sealing all the God's servants although he completed sealing all those who are servants of God from 12 tribes of Israel.
Obviously, they are old testament saints. Before the crucifixion of Lord Jesus Christ, only those from Israel was servants of God and sealed for that reason.

@Adstar I see.... I think.

What though of all those who follow some other religion equally true unto themselves, beyond the Abrahamic faiths? (The Christian Bible is just a collation of older Judaic books.)

What is supposed to happen - at the hands of an apparently very destructive and vengeful God - and when? Anyone can "prophesy" some nebulous far-future event based on no calendar; and if you pitch it in the right way to the right audience, enough of them will believe it for it to survive!

That one thousand gross looks a suspiciously neat number; probably far from the real Middle Eastern Jewish population at the time, though I don't suppose we have any way of knowing what that was. I doubt it was intended to be numerically exact though.

The whole things looks like a vivid dream inspired by religious fervour mixed with dodgy plant extracts, and yes, such combinations were common among the ancients. So what the heck was its basic point, beyond all the fantasy?

@ArishMell [quote]@Adstar I see.... I think.

What though of all those who follow some other religion equally true unto themselves, beyond the Abrahamic faiths? (The Christian Bible is just a collation of older Judaic books.)[/quote]

The Bible is divided into two parts called the Old testament and the New testament.. The old testament has 39 books which are older Judaic books.. But the New testament has 27 books.. Yes the majority of the text in the Bible are Judaic..

I believe as a Christian that when a person hears or read the message of Jesus so that they then have the option of accepting or rejecting the message of Jesus then their eternal destiny is destermined by their response to His message.. So it matters not what religion abrahamic or otherwise they are currently in.. Once they hear the message of Jesus they are then judged on their reponse to it..

[quote]What is supposed to happen - at the hands of an apparently very destructive and vengeful God - and when? Anyone can "prophesy" some nebulous far-future event based on no calendar; and if you pitch it in the right way to the right audience, enough of them will believe it for it to survive![/quote]

Yes a just God will avenge those who persecute His people.. Thats a good thing.. And yes there are and since the time of Jesus on earth there has always been a number of people in every generation who believe the prophecies of the Bible.. And yes the Bible has survived for near 2000 years..

[quote]That one thousand gross looks a suspiciously neat number; probably far from the real Middle Eastern Jewish population at the time,[/quote]

What? 1000? where ae you getting that number from? at the time?? what time?

[quote]The whole things looks like a vivid dream inspired by religious fervour mixed with dodgy plant extracts, and yes, such combinations were common among the ancients. So what the heck was its basic point, beyond all the fantasy?
[/quote]

It was a vision, that happened to John on the island of Patmos.. No plant extracts needed.. And no fantasy involved.. The book of Revelation was God giving Christians revelations on who Jesus is and what would happen into the future untill the time of the completion of the program and our entery into eternity with Him.. It lets Christians know that there will be an end to the way things are in this world and that God has things all pre-planned and foreknows the future..