RIP Pope Francis

I'm not a Catholic and aside from the music, artwork, and architecture it inspires, I don't have much use for religion in general. I certainly didn't agree with Francis in every area. But he was the first pope in my lifetime who I didn't view as an enemy. Instead of the incessant bleating over abortion, gay rights, and "society abandoning religion," Francis used his pulpit to speak out against issues like wealth inequality, climate change, and encouraged people to be kinder and more empathetic, not because "God" wanted them to, but because it was the right thing to do.

Because he took these positions, conservatives hated Francis. The latest podcast from conservative loudmouth Michael Savage is "Lenin's Pope." For the younger people reading this, this isn't normal. It's usually liberals complaining about the pope while conservatives extol him as a "voice of morality" and similar crap. So when people ask if the next pope will "continue on the path Francis began" or will be a "traditionalist," that's what they're referring to. Will the next pope be a culture war-obsessed piece of shit, or a decent human being?

Of course, this isn't up to me, it's up to the 135 members of the College of Cardinals, who are the cardinals under age 80 who will choose the next pope at the conclave in a few weeks. If it means anything, Francis appointed two-thirds of the ones who will be voting on his successor, and he typically chose to elevate bishops who shared his views. It takes a two-thirds majority to elect a pope.

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SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M

Recall that his appointment came after the resignation of Ratzenger(Pope Benedict) who was a member of "Hitlers Youth" in Nazi Germany. That and his seeming indifference to the massive sex abuse scandals enveloping the Catholic Church, Benedict resigned and Pope Francis was a "correction" appointment.

He was the first Pope from Latin America(the only large devoted Catholic group left), and he was a Jesuit.

As you say, he was very progressive for a Catholic Pope, speaking positively of gays and transgenders, as well as his focus on the poor and climate change.

Not sure where they go from here, but I agree that another Progressive Pope is likely the next one to be appointed.

LeopoldBloom · M

@SumKindaMunster I don't know if Benedict was indifferent to the sex abuse scandal; he just couldn't deal with it. As for his membership in the Hitler Youth, my understanding is that was mandatory at the time, and he got out of it as soon as he could, citing conflicts with his clerical studies. But that aside, he recognized that he was more of a scholar and wasn't equipped to lead the church.

Regardless of whether the next pope is a reformer in Francis' mold or a traditionalist, one effect Francis had on the church won't be undone - he elevated many more cardinals from Latin America, Asia, and Africa. On one hand, this acknowledges the fact that the church's future will be in the global south as religion in general, and mainstream denominations like Catholicism in particular are seeing a decline in membership in the West. The drawback will be that this conclave will be composed of many cardinals who barely know each other, a major difference compared to the more cohesive past colleges dominated by Europeans.

I'm rooting for Zuppi, Tagle, or Avelline. Robert Sarah would be a disaster for human rights around the world and would very likely signal the end of the church as a force in Western liberal countries. Erdő wouldn't be much better.

degraded · 22-25, F

@SumKindaMunster Why do they say Pope Francis was from Latin America? He was Italian. His parents were Italian immigrants who settled in Argentina.

degraded · 22-25, F

@LeopoldBloom Robert Sarah and Péter Erdő are wonderful. Sarah is a strong and conservative African man, and Erdő is a true European believer and patriot of Hungary.

The Catholic Church has to tend to its flock and convert those who seek tradition. It is not the job of the pope to appease the atheists, to neglect the faithful to please the faithless. This is not how you convert. Are you any closer to becoming Catholic because the pope said things you agree with? I know you aren't.

SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M

@degraded Not sure how you designate this in Russia, but in the West, the country of your birth is your nationality. Pope Francis was born in Argentina.

SumKindaMunster · 51-55, M

@LeopoldBloom Thanks for your reply.

I don't really have a horse in this race so I can't comment on some of the viable replacements you mentioned.

As a former Catholic, I cut any sort of ties and sympathy for the Church. Between their cover up of one of the worst child sex abuse scandals in modern history as well as their efforts to bring illegals over the border, I advocate for the Catholic Church to be destroyed through a RICO case and the money put in a fund for the sex abuse victims and their families.

LeopoldBloom · M

@degraded As SumKindaMunster said, Francis was born in Argentina and was an Argentine citizen. Like most countries in the Americas, citizenship in Argentina is jus soli, meaning you're a citizen if you're born there, regardless of where your parents were from.

Sarah and Erdő are "traditionalists" and would bring the church back to its former obsession with constant bleating about abortion and gay people, while ignoring the things that actually affect peoples' lives. If you want to end the church as a significant force in the U.S. and Europe, by all means pick one of those two men. However, I don't think the church wants to go in that direction, but of course I could be wrong. The attention right now is on papabile like those two, Turkson, Zuppi, Tagle, and several others, but that doesn't necessarily mean anything. Francis wasn't even on the radar when he was chosen.

LeopoldBloom · M

@SumKindaMunster While I'm not a Catholic either, I view the pope as an important spokesman given his position as the spiritual and religious leader of 1.4 billion Catholics. So it makes a difference to me in the same way it matters who is elected to any major leadership position in a foreign country. Many people around the world viewed Trump's election with dismay even though he doesn't affect them directly.

LeopoldBloom · M

@SumKindaMunster I agree that the cover up of sexual abuse in the Catholic Church over many decades was one of the worst, if not the worst scandals in the modern era. However, it's not like other denominations are blameless. We're gradually becoming aware of the scale of sexual abuse in many Protestant denominations, although that's more likely to involve adult women rather than children.

And it's not limited to religion, either. It's rampant in entertainment, business, academia - pretty much anywhere where powerful men aren't held accountable.

As a non-religious person, I judge religions based on the artwork, literature, architecture, and music that they inspire, since this is, for me, their only source of value. The Catholics have done pretty well in this area. And of course, if religion inspires people to act with benevolence toward others, that's valuable as well. And if people use religion as justification for destruction and causing others to suffer, the ones that permit that are at the opposite end of the spectrum.

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