Is there a Heaven Is there a Hell that is a good question? How can we know, no one has came back from the dead to tell us. What are peoples views on this subject.
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SW-User
It seems that most are more capable of imagining hell than heaven. Gustave Dore, illustrating Dante''s Divine Comedy, did far more illustrations for the Inferno than for Paradise. Those for hell have so much more "bite", those for heaven fairly insipid.
One of Hell:-
Good stuff, hey? We've all wanted to throttle someone at one time or another.....
One of Heaven, in fact quite good, with the circling angels creating a mandela effect.
Yet can we share and relate to such an image in the same way as those of hell?
Thinking of other threads and exchanges here, maybe the sheer [i]selflessness[/i] of goodness means that we cannot picture it in the same way as the images of hell, which are soaked with our "self" - its desires, hates, its ignorance.
@SW-User I wish we were just animals. We seem possessed by an evil beyond all understanding. Our nature is well depicted in the paintings inspired by Dantes Hell. It is this evil that has given rise to an attempt to escape that disease through spirituality.
Stumbling on is all we have been doing thus far. Hell is hard to bear. Eternal suffering.
SW-User
@sree251 Well, we are animals. Every species of animal has its distinctions. Sartre once said that what distinguished the human animal was that while the particular nature of other animals determined their actions, with the human animal our actions determine our nature. I'd say this is more a difference of degree rather than of kind, nevertheless there is an element of truth there.
"In the beginning was the deed" said Goethe.
I do not think that suffering is eternal.
The ninth monologue of Samuel Beckett’s 1954 "Texts for Nothing" offers a literal translation of the four concluding words of Dante's Inferno: ‘and see the stars again’ ([i]‘a riveder le stelle’).[/i] They are spoken by a tramp-like waif as he contemplates death:-
"There’s a way out there, there’s a way out somewhere, the rest would come, the other words, sooner or later, and the power to get there, and the way to get there, and pass out, and see the beauties of the skies, and see the stars again."
I'm not sure if such hope was Beckett's or if he was simply putting the words into the mouth of one of his characters. But I share that hope/belief/faith - call it what you will.
@SW-User "Our actions determine our nature." Wow, that's deep and so true. I am saying this from intuition, not from rational determination of that truth. So, we need to discuss this reflectively.
I share that hope also, that there is an end to suffering. I have a feeling that it is a freedom that can be attained without an awareness of being in that state. What do you think?
Imagine, in Hell, consumed by and in that suffering but not of it.
SW-User
@sree251 Well, there is a place for intuition (even if it can lead us astray at times if we trust it without question) Strict logic too has its limitations.
I try to "reflect" upon this as deeply as my own mind/heart allows. Myself, I simply have to have the trust/faith that ultimately there is an end to suffering (perhaps even in [i]this[/i] life) This partly because it allows me to look squarely into the very deepest sufferings of others, and into my own black heart. Otherwise I think I would try to look away.
@SW-User Yes, my own black heart is indeed the answer to freedom from suffering, if and when we see it.
Is suffering an idea to you or is it an actuality? It is not an idea if I am in a state of unhappiness that is palpable. So, let's track the disease and look for evidence of it. One source of suffering is the body, the other is the mind.
SW-User
@sree251 Certainly an actuality for me. Of course, there are various forms of suffering. Physically I am pretty OK, even though 74. Mental health wise, I simply do not know what is hitting me at times. To be honest, my only recourse at times - given how exhausted my mind is - is to play Soda Candy Crush Saga.
Buddhism (the Dharma) is all about [i]understanding[/i] suffering ( or Pali [i]dukkha[/i] ) I suppose you could say that I am "on the path". The idea is that if we [i]truly[/i] understand dukkha it will be the "end" of the path. The enemy is ignorance ([i]avidya[/i]) Which, when you try to work it out, is a very optimistic teaching, in as much as it is saying that if we [i]understand/see[/i] correctly then we shall no longer suffer. Not in some future world but here, now.
As said, I stumble on. As I have said before, as I see it, most religion is simply a [i]betrayal[/i] of [i]this[/i] world for some imagined "other". People look towards another life, another place, such virtually a magic wand to make all the hurt go away.
@SW-User The fact that you are physically ok at 74 is a testimony of spiritual attainment. You are practically walking between raindrops in the pouring rain of human suffering. Even as we speak, hundreds of thousands had perished in the Ukraine war. What of the two horrific world wars in which millions had suffered the violence we wreaked on ourselves? You escaped that too. The future is tenuous given the state of the human mind unfazed by suffering and incapable of learning from the pain. In the face of that, natural death of the unharmed body would be a high blessing in itself. You are protected even though this awareness brings no consolation. Why?
My answer comes from the intuition that we can never die even when the body dies. We will come back. Chances are, next time around, we will not be as blessed and get drenched in the pouring rain of suffering. No rest for the weary but to keep stumbling on. You don't have to do it alone. We will journey together.
SW-User
@sree251 Hello again. "Walking between raindrops"! I've often thought that and given thanks for it. Given the number of wars and famines and pure human misery in the world during my lifetime I am grateful that it has avoided falling on me. Nevertheless, I have spoken of mental suffering.
You seem to have some idea that the world, Reality-as-is, is [i]out to get us[/i]! I really do not think so.
Yes, we journey together. What comes to one will come to all.
@SW-User Oh yes, mental suffering is a constant companion. It's not morbid though. Neither has it to do with mental illness.
I am sure, given your state of awareness, you have also avoided the minefields of worldly life in which many are bogged in. Like me, you are not only free of bodily ailments but also blessed with financial viability without having to work for a living. The mental suffering I endure comes from the realization that there is no personal escape from the danger that mankind is facing, for mankind is me. As you rightly pointed out, religion in providing an imagined "other" is a betrayal. Rejecting that lie, I stay with the danger. My mental suffering comes from the anxiety over a clear and present danger: a world bracing itself for conflict in order to shore up a dysfunctional financial order. It's depressing.
My garden feels pretty quiet this morning after yesterday's rain. The baby rabbit (or is it hare?) is nibbling. Nature is the only sanity in the midst of man-made madness.
SW-User
@sree251 Yes, we have a small patio outside our apartment with a tiny bit of garden. A few flower tubs, a bird bath and bird-feeder. The nearby squirrels often get to the birdseed first. Our birdbath is just a very cheap terracotta plant pot base but has provided hours and hours of joy. Sometimes a few ducks waddle up from the pond in the park nearby. Funny really - they take a drink from the birdbath!
Just have one picture on file, an invasion of ducks.
Yes, staying with the danger. I realise that texts and such are not everyone's cup of tea, but the Dalai Lama's favourite verse from the [i]Bodicaryavatara[/i] is:-
[i]For as long as the universe endures, for as long as this earth lasts, may I live to dispel the miseries of the world.[/i]
For the Mahayana, the "way out" is itself the way back. No betrayal.
@SW-User Lovely garden. Thanks for sharing. I can see the magic even from here. I feel that our protection comes from being with that magic. It won't come into your life and infuse it with its ambiance unless and until you have given up everything to follow "it".
Texts are us. I can't perceive without the word.
SW-User
@sree251 I like "texts are us". Like [i]everything[/i] else they can be known and received as "revelation". Picking out just one thing, or one text, and declaring it pre-eminent and for [i]all[/i] is a recipe for conflict and further suffering.
