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dancingtongue · 80-89, M
Why is it that you cannot question Zionism's refusal to follow the UN's original mandate for Palestine to have been a secular state for both returning Jews and Palestinians, Israel's 65 year unwillingness to negotiate a two-state solution for the occupied territories and flaunting of international law by building Jewish settlements in the occupied territories, Isarel' s apartheid-like treatment of Palestinian citizens at home, and their totally inhumane blockade of the Gaza Strip for the past several years without it being called anti-semetism rather than geopolitical questions of a nation's actions? And before you begin lobbing the labels, slogans, and blocks against me, I am no supporter of Hamas' strategies, tactics, and brutality either, nor of Iran's and the U.S.'s meddling. Let the reasonable folk in Israel and the PLO sort things out with the provocations of the extremists who want to turn everything into a religious war.
JimboSaturn · 56-60, M
@dancingtongue Well put.
JimboSaturn · 56-60, M
@dancingtongue I fear that the events now are going to create a new batch of Hammas terrorists.
LeopoldBloom · M
@dancingtongue What about the refusal of the Arab states to accept the Palestinian state the UN proposed in 1947? And when the West Bank and Gaza were under Jordanian and Egyptian control up to 1967, why weren't the Palestinians demanding their own state then? Placing the blame for the entire situation on Israel as if no one else made a mistake is ignorant and wrong.
carpediem · 61-69, M
@dancingtongue You need to get your facts straight. In July of 2000, most of what Arafat wanted was presented to him.
The proposals included the establishment of a demilitarized Palestinian state on some 92% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip, with some territorial compensation for the Palestinians from pre-1967 Israeli territory; the dismantling of most of the settlements and the concentration of the bulk of the settlers inside the 8% of the West Bank to be annexed by Israel; the establishment of the Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem, in which some Arab neighborhoods would become sovereign Palestinian territory and others would enjoy "functional autonomy"; Palestinian sovereignty over half the Old City of Jerusalem (the Muslim and Christian quarters) and "custodianship," though not sovereignty, over the Temple Mount; a return of refugees to the prospective Palestinian state though with no "right of return" to Israel proper; and the organization by the international community of a massive aid program to facilitate the refugees' rehabilitation.
Of course, Arafat simply said NO. To that, Bill Clinton and I quote: "He did not negotiate in good faith; indeed, he did not negotiate at all. He just kept saying no to every offer, never making any counterproposals of his own,"
Ehud Barak, the prime minister was quoted as saying: "What they [Arafat and his colleagues] want is a Palestinian state in all of Palestine. What we see as self-evident, [the need for] two states for two peoples, they reject."
The proposals included the establishment of a demilitarized Palestinian state on some 92% of the West Bank and 100% of the Gaza Strip, with some territorial compensation for the Palestinians from pre-1967 Israeli territory; the dismantling of most of the settlements and the concentration of the bulk of the settlers inside the 8% of the West Bank to be annexed by Israel; the establishment of the Palestinian capital in east Jerusalem, in which some Arab neighborhoods would become sovereign Palestinian territory and others would enjoy "functional autonomy"; Palestinian sovereignty over half the Old City of Jerusalem (the Muslim and Christian quarters) and "custodianship," though not sovereignty, over the Temple Mount; a return of refugees to the prospective Palestinian state though with no "right of return" to Israel proper; and the organization by the international community of a massive aid program to facilitate the refugees' rehabilitation.
Of course, Arafat simply said NO. To that, Bill Clinton and I quote: "He did not negotiate in good faith; indeed, he did not negotiate at all. He just kept saying no to every offer, never making any counterproposals of his own,"
Ehud Barak, the prime minister was quoted as saying: "What they [Arafat and his colleagues] want is a Palestinian state in all of Palestine. What we see as self-evident, [the need for] two states for two peoples, they reject."
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dancingtongue · 80-89, M
@LeopoldBloom Never meant to -- and don't think I did -- put all the blame on one side. There is plenty of blame to go around, beginning with the stupid carving up the Turkish Empire after WWI creating "nations" with little common identity. My point was that yelling anti-semitism every time there is any criticism of the nation of Israel is no way to be accountable for your actions, and genocide can rightfully be called by both sides in this current war, triggered obviously by the October 7th massacre by Hamas. But then Hamas probably would not have the support of the Gaza people if they were not living in such desperate conditions caused by Israel's years of blockade.
dancingtongue · 80-89, M
@carpediem Actually you skipped over the part about how Sharon was assassinated by a Jewish extremist who felt he had given away too much in the Oslo Accords, how Netanyahu came to power and began reneging on previously agreed to steps in creating a two-state solution. Arafat was not willing to go backwards; politically probably couldn't because Hamas already was becoming an extremist group fighting the two-state solution already agreed to in Oslo. Plenty of blame to go all around. Geopolitical blame having little to do with anti-semetism imho.
AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
@dancingtongue they negotiated w Arafat and Sadat pretty good .
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LeopoldBloom · M
@dancingtongue I agree that criticism of Israel's government or policies isn't antisemitism. I'm critical of the West Bank settlements and Netanyahu can't go soon enough as far as I'm concerned. But when people call for Israel's destruction, either by the expulsion of Jews or their reduction to dhimmi status, that is antisemitic. Just as it would be anti-Mexican for me to say that Mexico is an illegitimate country and should not exist.
robb65 · 56-60, M
@dancingtongue I would suggest you look at what was " UN's original mandate for Palestine" . That area was considerably larger than the current Israel. What happened? I'll give you a hint, Israel ended up with only about 20% of it.
carpediem · 61-69, M
@dancingtongue Agreed, there is plenty of blame to go around. But extremists exist on both sides. I think you meant Yitzhak Rabin on the Oslo Accords. And his murder was motivated more on religious grounds rather than what was promised.
It wasn't the 2 state issue that killed the Oslo Accords. It was about pulling back from the Golan Heights and what line would be acceptable. Arafat never had any intention to work towards a solution. He was a crook. He became wealthy skimming $$ off Palestinian aide provided by the Clinton administration.
The Palestinians have never had a desire for a 2 state situation. All they want is to kill every Jew and wipe them from the earth. "River to the sea" as these idiots at US universities are chanting. That's the problem right there. No interest in peace from the Palestinians whatsoever.
It wasn't the 2 state issue that killed the Oslo Accords. It was about pulling back from the Golan Heights and what line would be acceptable. Arafat never had any intention to work towards a solution. He was a crook. He became wealthy skimming $$ off Palestinian aide provided by the Clinton administration.
The Palestinians have never had a desire for a 2 state situation. All they want is to kill every Jew and wipe them from the earth. "River to the sea" as these idiots at US universities are chanting. That's the problem right there. No interest in peace from the Palestinians whatsoever.
AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
@LeopoldBloom the Palestinians tried to take over Jordan. That’s why they are persona non grata in Egypt , Lebanon, Syria . Their own brothers don’t want them . They know they just want to use their countries to stage offensives against Israel.
LeopoldBloom · M
@AthrillatheHunt Exactly. This is why after the Six-Day War, Egypt and Jordan relinquished their claims on Gaza and the West Bank. Returning those areas in exchange for a peace treaty would have solved the problem, but there was no interest in that.
AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
@LeopoldBloom war sells dude . Money makes the world go round . Pause in global fighting ? Send Iran 300 million to buy arms so we can get back to our favorite pastime . War . Its only fun when you have an opponent (even if you have to arm them yourselves ).
@dancingtongue [media=https://youtu.be/R1cVsyUXxYM]
@dancingtongue [media=https://youtu.be/t6of72XgiUg]
@dancingtongue [media=https://youtu.be/O7ByJb7QQ9U]
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AthrillatheHunt · 51-55, M
@LeopoldBloom I like how you never miss an opportunity to spew negativity about Orange .
DogMan · 61-69, M
@dancingtongue A two state solution was achieved when Clinton was POTUS. Arafat
agreed with the aslo accord, the ink had not dried before he continued the attacks on
Israel.
The Pals have proved over and over they DO NOT want a two state solution, they want
the Jews OUT OF ISRAEL. They are NOT NEGOCIATING.
agreed with the aslo accord, the ink had not dried before he continued the attacks on
Israel.
The Pals have proved over and over they DO NOT want a two state solution, they want
the Jews OUT OF ISRAEL. They are NOT NEGOCIATING.