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I'm an atheist so help me understand the Christian reasoning from a rational perspective:

God created man and i guess he did a bad job because we, as species, decided to be very bad in his eyes.
So after killing every man, woman and baby save for Noah and his sons and son's wives...he actually decides we deserve death and torment again.
He wants to forgive us but in order to do this he needs blood. And not just any blood but the blood of his only son/aspect of himself.
So he makes an animal/human sacrifice of his son in order to forgive us for being so shitty...but it's only going to work if we believe the story after thousands of years.

So....if he wants to forgive and give a second chance, why not just do it without demanding blood and allegiance?

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SW-User
Critics of the Bible like yourself often ask "Why the need for sacrifice at all? Can't God just forgive?"

From the beginning we see God, due to his nature, cannot tolerate wickedness without divine vengeance on that man or substitute. In Genesis 4:10 it says, "And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground."

The main proposition being conveyed to us is that God has this inherent natural compulsion for vengeance, to punish the guilty and vindicate the righteous.

Exodus 34:7 - Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

People will ask why can't God just forgive and clear the guilty? Because in order for a man to be acquitted there must be a payment made for what he has done. Why? Because God has a nature that is distinct and governs his will. His will is not arbitrary. Thus we read in Habakkuk 1:13 - Thou art of purer eyes than to behold evil, and canst not look on iniquity: wherefore lookest thou upon them that deal treacherously, and holdest thy tongue when the wicked devoureth the man that is more righteous than he?

Take for example, a man named Jeff has murdered a member of your family. He's taken into custody and appears in court. The judge says "I wish to show mercy to Jeff and set him free, with no ransom or recompense even though I know he's guilty." You would be rightfully angry, because justice was not served. So why do you question God for doing that which you want and expect an earthly judge to do?

If a judge just arbitrarily forgave the criminal, would you say the judge is just? No. Of course not. By doing that he has besmirched the value of the man that he murdered.

Jesus Christs death is the ransom and recompense for our sins in order that God may be just when He declares us sinners righteous. So what's the reason why God can't just forgive? Because He has to be just when he justifies the wicked. There must be a payment made, because He will by no means clear the guilty.

God hates evil because of the purity of His eyes, because He is perfect, just and holy. Evil is something He hates within his nature. Thus if He wills to acquit man of his sins, payment must be made.

This is why Paul says in Romans 3:23 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Propitiation means a satisfaction of wrath.

Don't deny the gift of God which is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Now is the day of salvation. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ today.
@SW-User

From the beginning we see God, due to his nature, cannot tolerate wickedness without divine vengeance on that man or substitute

Incorrect. We see that he doesn't, not that he cannot. This does not answer the question of why blood is necessary to forgive.

You would be rightfully angry, because justice was not served.

And if the judge says " Murder my son to pay for Jeff's crimes', justice would not be served either and the victims would still be angry. And just imagine if the Judge KNEW before hand that Jeff was going to commit the crime.
lol it's an absurd justification that substitutional atonement is justice. But therefore god does not care about what is actually just, only about his own rules about blood and sacrifice,

The main proposition being conveyed to us is that God has this inherent natural compulsion for vengeance

Agreed. The character of god that we learn from the bible evidently values judgement and retribution over actual justice and compassion.
So explain to me as an atheist why that is someone i should love and respect and pledge allegiance to....
exchrist · 31-35
@Pikachu simply stated. You shouldnt.
SW-User
@Pikachu There is an inner science of blood atonement.

The basic mechanics of blood atonement are revealed by the Lord Jesus Christ when He says in John 3:14, "And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:"

The event here He is citing is recorded in Numbers 21, where a serpent bites are cured through Moses' serpent of brass. This is the law of similarity. Like for like, like cures like, like produces like, like has an affinity for like. Just as today when a man is bitten by a snake, doctors produce antiserum from the venom of the snake. Like cures like.

The death of the Messiah cures your death. This is the basic mechanics of blood atonement.

People will ask why did Jesus Christ have to be pierced and bleed? Why the blood? It is a statute. And blood is the most powerful substance on earth. And we are talking about God's own pure blood - the most powerful. Leviticus 17:11 says, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul."

Do you realize that the Bible knew that the life of the flesh is in the blood thousands of years before science did? For centuries doctors foolishly drained the blood out of their patients resulting in certain death. They even did so to George Washington, because even then science did not discover what the Bible knew thousands of years earlier about the nature of blood.

Matthew 26:28 - For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.

Colossians 1:14 - In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins.

Hebrews 9:12 - Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

Hebrews 9:22 - And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

People will ask why did God have to become a man in order to save other men? If two objects A and B are similar in their properties then a change in A can cause a corresponding change in B. In order for the effects of Jesus Christs atonement to reach other men, an ether link channel must be established. An antenna was set up so that that frequency would create an ether link, a channel whereby He could affect another man. God had to become a man to create that ether link, where the effects of His atonement could accrue to those who have faith in Him.

2 Corinthians 5:21 - For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

1 Peter 2:24 - Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Judgement/retribution and justice/compassion are two sides of the same coin, just like love and hate are two sides of the same coin.

Real love hates evil. Without a deadly hatred of that which threatens what we love, love is an empty catchword for hippies, queers and cowards.
One of the reasons our society is in such a mess is because our society has a fake love. The cultural marxists have, in typical Orwellian newspeak fashion, redefined the word love to mean tolerate and accept everything. Aristotle said, "Tolerance and apathy are the last virtues of a dying society." True love hates evil. if you love justice, you'll hate robbery and murder, if you love children, you'll hate pedophiles, if you love the flowers, you'll hate the weeds, if you love God, you'll hate Satan. This modern view that all hate is bad is so strange and stupid. Hate is a natural part of the spectrum of human emotions. It means a strong aversion to something.

Romans 12:9 - Let love be without dissimulation. Abhor that which is evil; cleave to that which is good.

Notice how it says let love be without dissimulation. Dissimulation - a simulation is a fake. This verse is saying do not let your love be fake and then it proceeds to define what real love is, which is abhorring or hating that which is evil.

Just like you can't have true love without hate, you can't have true justice without judgement. This should be common knowledge, but it is very controversial today because of words constantly being redefined to fit a politically correct agenda. Words like judgement, justice and compassion have been redefined. A very convenient tool in order to try and control the game.

Also, in your atheistic worldview of moral relativism, you can't even justify why justice and compassion are good, because in your worldview there is no such thing as good and evil; it's all based on the ever changing subjective feelings of man, so your worldview has no such thing as absolute morality because you don't have an absolute moral law giver and a final authority to base anything on. So, you even commenting on that is a non-sequitur and a form of doublethink really.

You atheists claim to be so smart, scientific and logical, but then your whole premise is so illogical because here's your argument basically: we don't like God and he's not pleasant to us and we don't approve of him, so therefore he must not exist. That doesn't even make any sense.

Romans 1:22 - Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

Psalms 14:1 - The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

I'm not very pleasant to atheists, yet I exist. Apparently things can exist without you approving of them. And the creator of the universe doesn't need your approval to exist.

Also, you don't get to define words. You are not the arbiter of anything. You did not create the universe. Don't worship your own limited and faulty mind. The atheist worships his own intellect and reasoning. Just think about it: the intellect and reasoning that the atheist worships comes from a limited brain that can only detect 0.0035 percent of the electromagnetic spectrum -visible light - (of which that entire electromagnetic spectrum itself is only a fraction of what can be seen and exists in the universe). A brain that can't hear a dog whistle or even see certain patterns on plants that some insects can see. A limited 3 pound brain that certainly cannot fit the infinite God of the Bible inside of or in the tiny box of "proof" and "evidence" which that limited brain has created.

You expect to read the Bible and have God thinking just the way you think and agreeing with you on everything. You expect God to be just like you. That's your problem. Think about how insane this is. Basically what you are saying is that you are this unique unicorn where your personal views and what you think in your heart is the exact way the creator of the universe thinks and feels. You have a God complex. You think that you have all the correct answers within and expect God to match that perfectly. Then if God doesn't match that perfectly, you're going to judge God. And you'll start to question: "Why would a loving God do this?" "Why didn't God do it this way?" "Why would God allow this to happen". The Atheist approaches the Bible expecting God to agree with every feeling and thought they have in their heart that seems true, which is the utmost arrogance.

Now, what are these feelings and thoughts in the heart that seem true? It's everything you've watched on TV your whole life, it's a combination of everything you've heard on the radio, read in magazines and books, learned from your parents, learned in school and everything the media has taught you. Can you really trust that? Do you think that you're the final judge of what's right and wrong? You see our own heart is not a trustworthy source of truth. In fact, the Bible says "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" - Jer 17:9

You are lead by your own deceitful and wicked heart or as some might say, your own inner voice, which is a result of aforementioned influences. The kind of inner voice that says, "Would a loving God really torch Sodom and Gomorrah? That just doesn't FEEL right to me." Well, who the hell are you? You're nobody. Who cares what you think. Your opinion is just what happened to be taught to you by culture and society. And society and culture had radically different views just a couple of decades ago. So, what doesn't seem right to you in the Bible is irrelevant. The Bible says in Proverbs 14:12, "There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, But the end thereof are the ways of death."

So, I decided to put my faith and trust in what the Word of God says on every subject and when what I think and the Word of God says conflict, I am going to say that I am wrong and The Bible is right. I made the decision a long time ago that whatever the Bible says I am just going to believe it because the Bible says "He that trusteth in his own heart is a fool...." It also says in Proverbs 3:5-6, "Trust in the Lord with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths."

Why put your faith in a society and CULTure that is constantly changing? The Word Cult is in culture for a reason. Put your faith in the God of the Bible, who NEVER changes. "For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.” - Malachi 3:6
"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever." - Hebrews 13:8.

Gods Word is the final authority. Let God be true, but every man a liar! Let God be righteous and let us be unrighteous. We are wrong and He is the one who is right. That is where you need to get in life, my friend.

You'll probably say, "how can you just blindly believe the Bible?" How can you just blindly believe what your cartoon, movie, rockin roll music filled mind tells you what is right all the time? What are you listening to? Some voice inside that just happens to be telling you whatever TV and the media is telling you? Isn't it interesting that you have an inner voice telling you the same things that millions of other people are being told by their inner voice, that nobody had an inner voice telling them that in the 50's, 60's and 70's.

God's not unrighteous, You're unrighteous. We all are unrighteous. God is right. Everything God does is right and all of his judgments are right. He's right about every subject all the time. God is the author of righteousness and He decides what is righteous and what isn't. You don't. You don't get to stand in Judgement of God. God is the one who makes the rules.
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@SW-User

This is the law of similarity.

That's not a law though. You don't cure a burn by burning it more, you don't cure drowning with more water, you don't cure an infection with more of the infection.
An analogy does not a law make.

I appreciate that you typed a lot of words out there but all you really end up saying is that blood and death are required as payment because that's how it works....well that's not a justification for WHY it must work that way.
We already have examples in our own lives of not needing blood to forgive someone who has wronged us. Often a simple " I'm sorry" actually does the trick lol.

Just like you can't have true love without hate

Yeah...but that's a stupid thing to say. Of course love exists without hate. I don't need to experience hate in order to experience love. Not even as a necessary contrast because there are many other feelings between love and hate.

true justice without judgement

Maybe. But the subject under discussion isn't even justice. Substitutional atonement is not justice.
If i commit murder and at my trial the judge says " No, actually my son will be punished instead of you"...no justice has been served.
Do you see how silly it sounds when we divorce the scenario from the mythology?

I understand that you have faith. Lots of folks do and you have a religious scaffold which helps you justify seemingly problematic concepts and sooths the discomfort you might feel when they are held up for examination.
You have done a great job at describing at length what you feel to be the mechanics of blood sacrifice but you have come nowhere closer to logically addressing the WHY of an omnipotent being doing a few false starts at creating humanity and then deciding that in order to keep his botched creation that someone needs to die.
@Pikachu i was going to take the time to read thru this and possibly reply. But seeing how the responder's left SW… oh well.
exchrist · 31-35
@froggtongue it would seem as often happens on sw (with new users) the poster wasnt prepared for actual intellectual debate and rational conversation. So thats fun and overall good work on your part! 😜
@exchrist it might be seen as a win. But if the opponent didn't change or challenge their own beliefs, how good was the argument?
exchrist · 31-35
@froggtongue if that individual didnt want or was unwilling to listen. . . Why waste the time?
@froggtongue
lol yes, not really worth it.
Based on other responses by him, i'm convinced he was a troll. But that was such a lengthy response that i felt i should respond to it.