What's the difference?
Aside from the obvious alleged absence of gods, what is the difference between atheism and theistic religions?
This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage Sorry for the delay, Doc, sometimes I can't resist the dummies that come out of the woodwork.
[quote]How about the afterlife for starters ?[/quote]
Good answer. That's one difference.
[quote]Religion usually offers something beyond this world.[/quote]
Uh - religion often offers something beyond this world for something of this world in exchange. They can't deliver though. Begs the question of the motive of those who pony up some cash.
[quote]Rewards for obedience, punishment for immorality. You don’t have that when you don’t have a god to back it up.[/quote]
Rewards for obedience, punishment for immorality don't exist in the secular atheist world? I think they do. I realize I had to dissect your post in order to make that point, and may have inadvertently deviated from its context, but from the atheist perspective the theist have no more gods (that exist) than the atheist.
A matter of perspective? The only difference is the alleged imaginary god.
[quote]How about the afterlife for starters ?[/quote]
Good answer. That's one difference.
[quote]Religion usually offers something beyond this world.[/quote]
Uh - religion often offers something beyond this world for something of this world in exchange. They can't deliver though. Begs the question of the motive of those who pony up some cash.
[quote]Rewards for obedience, punishment for immorality. You don’t have that when you don’t have a god to back it up.[/quote]
Rewards for obedience, punishment for immorality don't exist in the secular atheist world? I think they do. I realize I had to dissect your post in order to make that point, and may have inadvertently deviated from its context, but from the atheist perspective the theist have no more gods (that exist) than the atheist.
A matter of perspective? The only difference is the alleged imaginary god.
This message was deleted by its author.
AkioTsukino · M
@originnone Alleged imaginary god is a product of ignorant atheists. I'm not one of those. I firmly believe in Jehovah God.
The rest of your observations I agree with but have no idea what they have to do with the difference asked about in the OP.
The rest of your observations I agree with but have no idea what they have to do with the difference asked about in the OP.
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
[quote] Rewards for obedience, punishment for immorality don't exist in the secular atheist world? [/quote]
The golden rule is simply go business and common sense. We don’t need a god to figure out an ordered society is mutually beneficial. The idea that there is some kind of justice after death is wishful thinking. Nothing more.
[quote] Atheism has no cohesive philosophy that I can see[/quote]
The reason you can’t see it, is it ( like god ) was never there to begin with.
Atheism makes no statement about anything, other than the disbelief in god and god. That’s it.
Most Atheist will tell you that they aren’t convinced of god’s existence, mainly to avoid arguments on the burden of proof. Some of us, will go as far as say there are no gods. But we’re not going to waste time trying to explain that something that isn’t there, isn’t there. Nor are we going to explain the origin of life, the universe, and everything (42)
The difference is very simple. Some people don’t need the illusion anymore. We don’t need a god to give us purpose and meaning. What more did you expect ?
[quote] Rewards for obedience, punishment for immorality don't exist in the secular atheist world? [/quote]
The golden rule is simply go business and common sense. We don’t need a god to figure out an ordered society is mutually beneficial. The idea that there is some kind of justice after death is wishful thinking. Nothing more.
[quote] Atheism has no cohesive philosophy that I can see[/quote]
The reason you can’t see it, is it ( like god ) was never there to begin with.
Atheism makes no statement about anything, other than the disbelief in god and god. That’s it.
Most Atheist will tell you that they aren’t convinced of god’s existence, mainly to avoid arguments on the burden of proof. Some of us, will go as far as say there are no gods. But we’re not going to waste time trying to explain that something that isn’t there, isn’t there. Nor are we going to explain the origin of life, the universe, and everything (42)
The difference is very simple. Some people don’t need the illusion anymore. We don’t need a god to give us purpose and meaning. What more did you expect ?
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
[quote] Alleged imaginary god is a product of ignorant atheists. I'm not one of those. I firmly believe in Jehovah God. [/quote]
To Atheist, [b]all gods are imaginary, including Jehovah [/b]
He’s merely the the one currently at the end of a long , long , chain of “one true god”
[quote] Alleged imaginary god is a product of ignorant atheists. I'm not one of those. I firmly believe in Jehovah God. [/quote]
To Atheist, [b]all gods are imaginary, including Jehovah [/b]
He’s merely the the one currently at the end of a long , long , chain of “one true god”
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage [quote]To Atheist, all gods are imaginary, including Jehovah[/quote]
Problem with that, other than that you obviously don't know what a god is, is that it is irrelevant. So what if they are imaginary? They are still gods and exist as such.
[quote]He’s merely the the one currently at the end of a long , long , chain of “one true god”[/quote]
At the end? That doesn't make sense. To everyone who has a god, which is everyone, their god is the one true god. It's like saying my preference in (anything; music, art, politics, etc.) is the only (anything; music, art, politics, etc.)
Problem with that, other than that you obviously don't know what a god is, is that it is irrelevant. So what if they are imaginary? They are still gods and exist as such.
[quote]He’s merely the the one currently at the end of a long , long , chain of “one true god”[/quote]
At the end? That doesn't make sense. To everyone who has a god, which is everyone, their god is the one true god. It's like saying my preference in (anything; music, art, politics, etc.) is the only (anything; music, art, politics, etc.)
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
[quote] So what if they are imaginary? They are still gods and exist as such. [/quote]
No they don’t. I didn’t start off as an Atheist, don’t assume believers have a monopoly on theism. We can still disagree with what we understand.
There have been thousands of gods throughout history. We give them whatever they need to get the job done, power, purpose, abilities, agenda, and even make up their history. And we do it to make ourselves feel more secure. The rest is just window dressing.
[quote] So what if they are imaginary? They are still gods and exist as such. [/quote]
No they don’t. I didn’t start off as an Atheist, don’t assume believers have a monopoly on theism. We can still disagree with what we understand.
There have been thousands of gods throughout history. We give them whatever they need to get the job done, power, purpose, abilities, agenda, and even make up their history. And we do it to make ourselves feel more secure. The rest is just window dressing.
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage You can't logically conclude that gods don't exist as imaginary creations which we give whatever they need and have for thousands of years. Your problem is you need to define what the gods are. You can't say there's no such thing as Santa Clause then volunteer to play one at the mall or pass half a dozen on the street on the way.
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
[quote] Your problem is you need to define what the gods are.[/quote]
No, I don’t. You’re not the only person to say that. It may come as a surprise to you, but Atheist probably understand god better than you.
Most of us didn’t start out as Atheist, it wasn’t all that easy to turn away from traditional beliefs. But there comes a time when you have to decide what matters more, truth or faith. They aren’t the same thing anymore.
I understand god and gods, that doesn’t mean I have to believe it.
[quote] Your problem is you need to define what the gods are.[/quote]
No, I don’t. You’re not the only person to say that. It may come as a surprise to you, but Atheist probably understand god better than you.
Most of us didn’t start out as Atheist, it wasn’t all that easy to turn away from traditional beliefs. But there comes a time when you have to decide what matters more, truth or faith. They aren’t the same thing anymore.
I understand god and gods, that doesn’t mean I have to believe it.
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage [quote]No, I don’t. [/quote]
Yes. You do.
[quote]You’re not the only person to say that.[/quote]
Okay. Irrelevant, but okay.
[quote] It may come as a surprise to you, but Atheist probably understand god better than you.[/quote]
It would surprise me if that turned out to be the case. After nearly 27 years as one myself, and 30 years where my main hobby has been debating atheists online and having talked to thousands of them in the real world as well as the World Wide Wasteland, it just isn't even remotely true.
[quote]Most of us didn’t start out as Atheist, it wasn’t all that easy to turn away from traditional beliefs.[/quote]
I know many, though not most, didn't start out as Atheist and I've always found it easy to turn away from traditional beliefs because they are usually stupid. My atheist tradition and the theistic tradition are two stunning examples of that stupidity.
[quote]But there comes a time when you have to decide what matters more, truth or faith. They aren’t the same thing anymore.[/quote]
Yes they are. Your preference doesn't change them, it only changes your perception.
[quote]I understand god and gods, that doesn’t mean I have to believe it.[/quote]
You aren't even close to understanding, except for, surprisingly, the accuracy in your estimation that if you did understand with accuracy you wouldn't necessarily have to believe. One understands accurately so that one can make an informed decision whether or not to believe. And believing doesn't necessarily indicate embracing.
Yes. You do.
[quote]You’re not the only person to say that.[/quote]
Okay. Irrelevant, but okay.
[quote] It may come as a surprise to you, but Atheist probably understand god better than you.[/quote]
It would surprise me if that turned out to be the case. After nearly 27 years as one myself, and 30 years where my main hobby has been debating atheists online and having talked to thousands of them in the real world as well as the World Wide Wasteland, it just isn't even remotely true.
[quote]Most of us didn’t start out as Atheist, it wasn’t all that easy to turn away from traditional beliefs.[/quote]
I know many, though not most, didn't start out as Atheist and I've always found it easy to turn away from traditional beliefs because they are usually stupid. My atheist tradition and the theistic tradition are two stunning examples of that stupidity.
[quote]But there comes a time when you have to decide what matters more, truth or faith. They aren’t the same thing anymore.[/quote]
Yes they are. Your preference doesn't change them, it only changes your perception.
[quote]I understand god and gods, that doesn’t mean I have to believe it.[/quote]
You aren't even close to understanding, except for, surprisingly, the accuracy in your estimation that if you did understand with accuracy you wouldn't necessarily have to believe. One understands accurately so that one can make an informed decision whether or not to believe. And believing doesn't necessarily indicate embracing.
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
[quote] You can't logically conclude that gods don't exist as imaginary creations which we give whatever they need and have for thousands of years. [/quote]
Why can’t I ? I heard many different arguments about god, both the spiritual and physical nature of his existence. What he is, and what he represents. I haven’t run into anything that convinces me that god is anything other than a man made construct. Logically, there is no other purpose for god outside mankind’s needs. I have no problem with the existence of reality simply being here.
[quote] You can't logically conclude that gods don't exist as imaginary creations which we give whatever they need and have for thousands of years. [/quote]
Why can’t I ? I heard many different arguments about god, both the spiritual and physical nature of his existence. What he is, and what he represents. I haven’t run into anything that convinces me that god is anything other than a man made construct. Logically, there is no other purpose for god outside mankind’s needs. I have no problem with the existence of reality simply being here.
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage Because the reality is it doesn't matter from your perspective. Obviously. Gods don't exist and yet people still give them whatever they need. It doesn't matter if they exist in a literal sense or not.
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
If god doesn’t exist in a literal sense, we don’t actually need him, do we ?
We can accept the human spirit, and stop giving credit to an invisible man.
I see nothing wrong with that.
If god doesn’t exist in a literal sense, we don’t actually need him, do we ?
We can accept the human spirit, and stop giving credit to an invisible man.
I see nothing wrong with that.
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage So?! If it's human spirit to continue giving credit to an invisible man there's nothing wrong with that, either, correct?
Take away your ideology and you have nothing. Your religion was the same. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
Take away your ideology and you have nothing. Your religion was the same. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss.
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
And if that credit is undeserved, and that invisible man isn’t there ?
And if that credit is undeserved, and that invisible man isn’t there ?
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage So, how many logical inconsistencies are there in your approach. Take away your ideological fixation and you got nothing.
1. If god doesn’t exist in a literal sense, we don’t actually need him, do we ?
Maybe it doesn't matter, or maybe we do. Six thousand years of civilization the foundation of which was almost entirely built upon mythological presuppositions could possibly be looked at with more than the myopic scientistic assumptions. No. Just kidding. Where would we get the funding? Joel Osteen? C'mon.
If Superman doesn't exist do we actually need him? Aesop's fables?
1. If god doesn’t exist in a literal sense, we don’t actually need him, do we ?
Maybe it doesn't matter, or maybe we do. Six thousand years of civilization the foundation of which was almost entirely built upon mythological presuppositions could possibly be looked at with more than the myopic scientistic assumptions. No. Just kidding. Where would we get the funding? Joel Osteen? C'mon.
If Superman doesn't exist do we actually need him? Aesop's fables?
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
Do we need him today, is the question.
More and more people are moving away from religion. Do you think they’re moving towards Superman, or Aesop ?
Do we need him today, is the question.
More and more people are moving away from religion. Do you think they’re moving towards Superman, or Aesop ?
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage Is it really a question of needing, and if so, how do you suppose we would need him?
Religion isn't where God is, religion is where science is going. You think we need that more than Superman or Aesop? The point was that it doesn't matter if we need gods. You only say that because you think we need something more than gods. Trouble is that thing is a god as well. You would know this if you knew what a god was. Then you could escape the deity trap and see things - all things eventually, more clearly.
Religion isn't where God is, religion is where science is going. You think we need that more than Superman or Aesop? The point was that it doesn't matter if we need gods. You only say that because you think we need something more than gods. Trouble is that thing is a god as well. You would know this if you knew what a god was. Then you could escape the deity trap and see things - all things eventually, more clearly.
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
It simply shows what I’ve said before. We make gods to suite our needs. They exist to serve whatever we need at the time.
There is no reason to believe an actual being exist, let alone created everything.
It simply shows what I’ve said before. We make gods to suite our needs. They exist to serve whatever we need at the time.
There is no reason to believe an actual being exist, let alone created everything.
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage [quote]It simply shows what I’ve said before. We make gods to suite our needs.[/quote]
Then why all the fuss?
[quote]They exist to serve whatever we need at the time.[/quote]
Which is?
[quote]There is no reason to believe an actual being exist, let alone created everything.[/quote]
Because we continue to exist nevertheless.
Then why all the fuss?
[quote]They exist to serve whatever we need at the time.[/quote]
Which is?
[quote]There is no reason to believe an actual being exist, let alone created everything.[/quote]
Because we continue to exist nevertheless.
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
[quote] Then why all the fuss? [/quote]
I’m not making a fuss. You asked what the difference was. Remember.
[quote] Then why all the fuss? [/quote]
I’m not making a fuss. You asked what the difference was. Remember.
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage No, I mean what is all the fuss about gods in general? Why would you and millions of others say get rid of the gods and me and millions of others say keep them?
You say get rid of them, but have you? Are you actively pursuing the getting rid of them? Educating people on what they are, why we need to get rid of them, etc?
You say get rid of them, but have you? Are you actively pursuing the getting rid of them? Educating people on what they are, why we need to get rid of them, etc?
DocSavage · M
@AkioTsukino
Ever run into a young earth creationist, or a Christian nationalist ?
Senators demanding the Ten Commandment be posted in every public school room.
The problem is too many people think they speak for god. And that god was out dated long ago.
Ever run into a young earth creationist, or a Christian nationalist ?
Senators demanding the Ten Commandment be posted in every public school room.
The problem is too many people think they speak for god. And that god was out dated long ago.
AkioTsukino · M
@DocSavage [quote]Ever run into a young earth creationist, or a Christian nationalist ?[/quote]
[shudder] Please. Don't do that.
[quote]Senators demanding the Ten Commandment be posted in every public school room.[/quote]
Puppets. I don't think they should be there, but who cares? Ideologues. The science of ideas. The "Ten Commandments" or Pharmacy advertisements. Who cares?
[quote]The problem is too many people think they speak for god. And that god was out dated long ago.[/quote]
Apparently not.
[shudder] Please. Don't do that.
[quote]Senators demanding the Ten Commandment be posted in every public school room.[/quote]
Puppets. I don't think they should be there, but who cares? Ideologues. The science of ideas. The "Ten Commandments" or Pharmacy advertisements. Who cares?
[quote]The problem is too many people think they speak for god. And that god was out dated long ago.[/quote]
Apparently not.