How man can prove God exists.

@sexyjigsaw [quote]Logically through observation, rationalization, reason, etc.[/quote]
Those are the reasons we do not believe gods (not just the christian version) exist.

@Lynda70 I'd be interested to hear more but first explain to me what kinda of evidence or proof would convince [b]you[/b] (on a personal level) that God exists.

Then a follow up concept that is required for this to be a fruitful conversation is:
What kind of evidence or proof is necessary to know about God's existence?

@sexyjigsaw [quote]I'd be interested to hear more but first explain to me what kinda of evidence or proof would convince you (on a personal level) that God exists.

Then a follow up concept that is required for this to be a fruitful conversation is:
What kind of evidence or proof is necessary to know about God's existence?[/quote]

If by "God" you mean the biblical Jesus, if he was still wiggling on the cross that could be considered proof, after all, it would only be 2 days God time.

If just one of the over 33,000,000 dieties man has worshiped would show up in all of its reputed glory to all of humanity that might be convincing. But, since we could walk on the Sun eating ice cream before that happens whatever deity you cook up is just a figment of your imagination.

@Diotrephes wait just a second. I just noticed you didn't answer the questions.

Care to reread and first answer honestly?
I'd love to continue but you have to know these things fiest, otherwise we are starting a fruitless conversation

@sexyjigsaw If there is an universal God, it could prove its existence by simply aligning all of the galaxies into a giant message board or it could take all of humanity on a cosmic tour of every planet in the universe. Of course we have no idea how large the universe really is. Our current observable universe is estimated to have over 200 billion trillion stars so if each star has an average of just 9 planets each it could be a long field trip even for God. He'll have to provide more than a few fish and a couple of loaves of bread for the trip.

@sexyjigsaw [quote]wait just a second. I just noticed you didn't answer the questions.[/quote]

What are the questions?

@Diotrephes let me grab them:

First one is not framed as a question and you answered it, so thank you!
1. [quote] I'd be interested to hear more but first explain to me what kinda of evidence or proof would convince you (on a personal level) that God exists [/quote]

2.
[quote]What kind of evidence or proof is necessary to know about God's existence? [/quote]



To follow up with the evidence you are mentioning, so if tomorrow you looked up at the stars and the stars started moving and spelled "I am God. Believe in me" amd you witnessed it, you'd be convinced that God exists and created this entire universe? Essentially a miracle right?

@sexyjigsaw [quote]To follow up with the evidence you are mentioning, so if tomorrow you looked up at the stars and the stars started moving and spelled "I am God. Believe in me" amd you witnessed it, you'd be convinced that God exists and created this entire universe? Essentially a miracle right?[/quote]
That would be a good start but it would be helpful if it said which God it is. I might think it was Zeus and someone might think it was Odin.

@Diotrephes I see. So when you reflect upon this cosmos, how do you explain or reason out the origin, or the things that must be a priori to this universe's existence? Meaning something that we can know that must have been before this universe's existence and yet we have rational, logical reasoning for us to accept it

@Diotrephes oh, and this isn't to switch topics but to explain more about how we can come to know what God MUST be, versus fairy tales

@sexyjigsaw
[quote]I'd be interested to hear more but first explain to me what kinda of evidence or proof would convince you (on a personal level) that God exists.[/quote]
As you have capitalized the word "God" I presume you mean the christian version rather than any of the millions of others. As it is supposed to be omniscient, it must already know what evidence it would need to present to convince me so you could try asking it. The fact that it hasn't presented such evidence strongly suggest it either doesn't exist or it doesn't care whether I believe it exists or not. Both those things are contrary to the claims believers make for it so it cannot exist in the way believers claim it does.

For your information, as it is highly unlikely to have answered your questions, I would want to see real, verifable, examples of the things believers claim it says it can do. Such event would need to have a causal connection with that specific god and be replicable at will. That should not be a problem for an omnipotent entity.

[quote]Then a follow up concept that is required for this to be a fruitful conversation is:
What kind of evidence or proof is necessary to know about God's existence?[/quote]
For me, the same as above.

[sep]
[quote]So when you reflect upon this cosmos, how do you explain or reason out the origin, or the things that must be a priori to this universe's existence?[/quote]
We don't really know how the universe came to be. If you want to claim "goddidit" you need to explain its origin. Once you've done that you can simply apply the same explanation to the origin of the universe and dump the god hypothesis in the bin.

@sexyjigsaw [quote]know what God MUST be, versus fairy tales[/quote]
First you need to show the difference between stories of "God" and other fairy tales. Put another way, why should we give more credence to stories about one mythical being ("God"), than to stories of other mythical beings?

@sexyjigsaw[quote] oh, and this isn't to switch topics but to explain more about how we can come to know what God MUST be, versus fairy tales[/quote]

People are creating androids and giving them the power of human expressions and conversation. At the current rate of progress they will soon be able to create a model that will look and behave just like an ordinary person. Will the android regard one of those people as a god?

@Lynda70 I would probably put a pause on drawing such strong conclusions unless you saw such signs and chose to deny it. And I am not talking about the Christian belief of God. The Jews and Muslims also believe in divine revelation from the Creator of the universe. That concept of the Originator, Designer, and Powerful being is what I intend to mean, as you picked up with the special capitalization

[quote] I would want to see real, verifable, examples of the things believers claim it says it can do. Such event would need to have a causal connection with that specific god and be replicable at will [/quote]
So, essentially you're asking for an example of something God can do that is a clear, demonstrable sign that God exists, right?
Or are you saying you want to witness God doing something before you explicitly?
Just wanna be clear

[quote]First you need to show the difference between stories of "God" and other fairy tales [/quote]
There's no need to discuss stories. I am calling you to reason and intellect. This is what we apply to any stories to distinguish between truth and falsehood, right? A consistent examination of the world, generation of principles and observed regularities, and applications of such intellectual, consistent principles. An illogical god can have many stories about them. It's not our job to blindly choose a random fairy tale to follow. (Cuz we could then follow Harry Potter). We need to think and reason such that if God was real, what is it that God would have as attributes. Since we are talking about God to have created this universe, we then talk about this universe and see what MUST be true so that we can rationalize if God is first necessary and possible. Because we have logic and reason. We can agree to use it here, right?

[quote] Will the android regard one of those people as a god? [/quote]
No. I don't think androids will consider or view anything in any way. Androids are machines built by us. They're structured from the ground up, right? Suppose they could. What would you think of an android concluding it does not have a maker?

@Diotrephes oops. I included a respinse to you for Lynda.

[quote]Will the android regard one of those people as a god?

No. I don't think androids will consider or view anything in any way. Androids are machines built by us. They're structured from the ground up, right? Suppose they could. What would you think of an android concluding it does not have a maker? [/quote]

The reason I conclude this is because I built a computer and programmed many computers from the binary, to the architecture, assembly, and more. Computers cannot have the power of human expression and conversation. Rather they follow mathematical structures on libraries of thousands of words with rules we programmed into them. We then run numbers and program them to function closer to how we like.

With all of that effort and clear input. suppose the robot starts making other robots and denies having a human maker. Or an intelligent maker. How would you demonstrate that the robots were all designed?

@sexyjigsaw [quote]So, essentially you're asking for an example of something God can do that is a clear, demonstrable sign that God exists, right?[/quote]

I need to see it or at least have some verifiable evience it had happened.

[quote]Since we are talking about God to have created this universe, we then talk about this universe and see what MUST be true so that we can rationalize if God is first necessary and possible.[/quote]
Already done many times. The conclusion is that a god is not necessary and there is no reason to belives one exists.

@Lynda70 [quote] I need to see it or at least have some verifiable evience it had happened [/quote]
I respect that. It's a totally reasonable requirement

[quote] Already done many times. The conclusion is that a god is not necessary [b]and there is no reason to belives one exists. [/b][/quote]
We'll see about the highlighted part, especially if you're consistent with the common understanding of the world we live in.
Your conclusion differs to mine. So perhaps we can start by reasoning using everything we know (logically and rationally through observation and reason) about anything and everything, including common sense.

So, I guess a first question would be:
Could this universe have had absolutely nothing before it? We know it started with the Big Bang. What do you think about there being purely nothing that caused this universe at all. Is this a rational argument? To say it just came about from purely nothing. If we cross this bridge, we could see if God is even possible or not and close out the conversation. Or, there is more understanding to be had.

@sexyjigsaw [quote]Could this universe have had absolutely nothing before it? [/quote]
That's possible but I think a quantum singularity is more likely. However, as I said earlier, if you want to invke a god you need to explain its origin but, once you do that you can explain the origin of the universe the same way.

@Lynda70 okay, I believe otherwise. Can you explain to me how or why you think nothingness can produce something?

And to be honest with you, that's the equivalent of saying if you want to invoke a quantum singularity, you'd have to explain the origin of the singularity. Would that really be the avenue you want the conversation to go? Because I really am thinking that just simply picking an idea and trying to justify it is silly. I think we can work through it with reason

Furthermore, this ties back to how it can be possible for this tremendous cosmos to come about from absolutely nothing. Can you explain that to me? Because if we can demonstrate that everything can come from nothing, this conversation is over because God wouldn't be necessary at all. Things can just come about from nothing and not an entity that has knowledge, power, and will.

@Lynda70 bear in mind I am asking because I am completely convinced that you cannot get anything from nothingness.

@sexyjigsaw [quote] Can you explain to me how or why you think nothingness can produce something?[/quote]
I simply said it's possible. A physicist tried to explain it to me but I don't fully understand the mechanism.

Perhaps you can explain where "god" came from. It's the same sort of question.

@sexyjigsaw [quote]I am completely convinced that you cannot get anything from nothingness.[/quote]
In that case, where you you believe "god" came from?

@Lynda70 that's fine, but can you explain how? I hope this isn't blind faith. A mechanism is a something, not nothing. And mechanisms tend to be inherent functionalities embodies by some greater thing. Things have to exist. I am just asking if there totally nothing, total and absolute absence of everything and anything, could we have this cosmos before us? Or must it have something that caused it?

Well, perhaps we can reason it out if we follow along. My goal was to work towards an understanding based on reason of principles, concepts, and ideas we can find as rational common ground.

If you want to jump to explaining where things come from, you'd need to explain where your singularity came from in a manner that doesn't make it a fantasy-like originator for this universe. I would then also have to do the same. If you wanna delve into personal beliefs without first establishing common principles with logic and reason, let me know. I see no need to talk about both God or a singularity if you think that we could have come about from totally nothing. Why think any further if that's a possibility in your understanding?

@sexyjigsaw [quote]that's fine, but can you explain how? [/quote]
I just said I can't. I might be able to if I had a PhD in quantum physics like the physicist who tried to explain it to me.

You said,
[quote]I am completely convinced that you cannot get anything from nothingness.[/quote]
Yet you seem to believe in a god that, unless something created it, must have come from nothing.