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Ideological Fixation And The Grand Utopia

I only suggest that participants be as "open minded" as possible. I don't want to fight. A rational discussion. I picked the topic in order to discuss what I see as the challenges before humanity in solving the problems of mankind in order to discuss them rationally.

No one knows everything. We tend to fixate on our ideological preferences. This means that right or wrong on issues as mundane as fashion, music, sports, art, literature, politics, et cetera, as well as the religious, spiritual, and epistemological we seem to want everyone else to think like we think. Since it is extremely unlikely in even the most advanced state of existence we could possibly imagine, that some unified consensus be reached on our ideal cohabitation I would like to discuss:

1. What challenges are before us.
2. How we might address those challenges.
3. What conflicts might arise in doing so.
4. And how we might possibly resolve those conflicts.

1. So, imagining that all of humanity were working together to achieve, as much as possible, that ideal cohabitation, what challenges would the sociopolitical landscape be faced with? Does anyone, like myself, think that the political divisions on a global as well as national scale would be the most prominent and that differences of a theistic nature, i.e. atheist vs theist, would be comparatively trivial?

2. We might address the political challenges by completely removing national and international political representation to local clusters wherein social and legislative issues would be voted on by individuals of legal age by means of secure voting achieved by technological development. We make a device which each adult within a relatively small community could use to decide matters of local importance. The device would be, as much as possible, secure and tamper proof.

3. Possible conflicts would be, first off, democracy and the temptation to take social, political and monetary advantage by groups within the community as well as the security of the device itself. First and foremost though, would be the need to remove the incentive to corrupt the system.

4. This could be resolved by removing the incentive, which would have already been in part incorporated within the removal of the old system and building of the new. Specifically the removal of government and money. Technologically speaking we are at the point where we could develop such a system.

Having said that, what does it have to do with atheism vs theism? I believe that the spiritual and the technological must coincide with one another in the development of mankind's social structuring. I think it not only crucial but unavoidable.

I should define the terms: spiritual: I define spiritual not as the metaphysical, i.e. abstract, baseless, but from the Greek word pneuma (from which comes the English pneumatic, pneumonia) meaning unseen active force. Tradition, culture, religion, compelled mental inclination. I call it practical spirituality. We have to examine the subtle yet powerful forces that compel us.

Technology: the application of scientific knowledge for practical purposes, especially in industry.

To summarize: we use technology for advancement without monetary incentive or political corruption, we minimize the conflict by reducing communities in size to have local governance without corruption of elected officials while examining the influence of tradition, culture, ideology, et cetera.

The question: could any alleged conflict between the spiritual and the scientific be addressed and resolved without being detrimental to the global network of communities?
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hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
Yeah no thanks. Utopia is the plan of fools. Humanity is a fallen creation and every attempt to make a more ideal world simply ends in failure and death as humanity destroys itself trying to bring about its imagined utopia. Throughout history you will see failed utopia after failed utopia as humans simply fail to live up to the ideals the utopia requires in order to be a utopia. If we could live in a utopia we would have attained it long ago.
@hippyjoe1955 [quote]Utopia is the plan of fools.[/quote]

And extremely dangerous.

[quote]Humanity is a fallen creation and every attempt to make a more ideal world simply ends in failure and death as humanity destroys itself trying to bring about its imagined utopia. Throughout history you will see failed utopia after failed utopia as humans simply fail to live up to the ideals the utopia requires in order to be a utopia.[/quote]

If there's one thing you and I may agree on it's that fallen mankind can't succeed at any attempts to achieve some utopian ideal, ultimately, only God can bring about our perfect state. However, there are two problems: that hasn't happened yet and as it is not everyone agrees it ever will.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino Which means we should try to create heaven on earth by killing everyone who doesn't behave in a heavenly manner like Stalin did to Ukraine?
@hippyjoe1955 Well, exactly, we shouldn't and that's what we have tried in the past. Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Bush, Obama, Hitler - I'm sure you aren't suggesting these are the best we can do. More or less what I'm suggesting is to prevent these failed systems from operating. Get rid of them.

Now, as you may well know, the governments have authority from God. What I'm suggesting is that we greatly reduce those to small autonomous regions. Propositions presented by the community and voted individually upon. Decided without elected officials. So there would be no Stalin, Bush, etc.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino I agree that government should be kept to a very very bare minimum. Sadly tyrants are endemic in humanity. From the very earliest times of humanity we have accounts of conquest and empires. Part of that fallen humanity thing I mentioned earlier.
@hippyjoe1955
That government is best which governs least, eh?

Well it just so happens that Somalia for a long time had the government on Earth which governed least. Didn't work out so great. Maybe your theory needs work.
hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues If you think Somalia is a case for small government you are very sadly mistaken but then again you are usually mistaken. Run along. Your pudding is missing you.
@hippyjoe1955 There was hardly any government at all in Somalia. Can't get much smaller than that! Somalia proves that you can't just keep making government smaller. Deal with it.

hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@ElwoodBlues If you think I am a libertarian you are very sadly mistaken. Run along now your pudding is congeling and you know how you hate that.
@ElwoodBlues @hippyjoe1955 Can either or both of you reasonably see the scenario in which the unavoidable destruction of both the liberal and conservative ideological paradigms takes place whereupon an alternative is produced or do you think that you would have the audacity to reestablish those paradigms to your death? With or without God.
@ElwoodBlues [quote]There was hardly any government at all in Somalia. Can't get much smaller than that! Somalia proves that you can't just keep making government smaller. Deal with it.[/quote]

I'm not familiar with the specifics in Somalia. Perhaps you can briefly and without the typical knee-jerk reactions in political debate explain?

You think that people can't govern themselves in small autonomous collectives with or without the interference of established political forces? That is super powers. Might makes right?
@AkioTsukino [quote]You think that people can't govern themselves in small autonomous collectives with or without the interference of established political forces? That is super powers.[/quote] My views come from reading Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs, and Steel." One of the most compelling parts was the discussion of different pacific island groups, all from the same racial stock, all settling their islands within a relatively narrow window.

I think small autonomous collectives work as long as there is something keeping it small, such as limited land and resources. In a bigger place with more resources, like the big island of Hawaii, empires evolve. In general, the history of human society is the history of conquest followed by fragmentation. I believe it's an unavoidable aspect of human nature.

[quote] Might makes right?[/quote] for that question I take as my text Locke's 2nd Treatise on Government. According to Locke, people agree to form or join a social contract for mutual protection from "the law of nature" where might makes right. The Plymouth Bay Pilgrims did this with their "Mayflower Compact."

Unfortunately, every social contract has to deal with the lowest common denominator of citizen, including thieves rapists and murderers, some of whom find subtle ways to stretch the rules. I agree that government sucks. I just don't see any alternative that can still
[quote] establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity[/quote]

In the immortal words of Winston Churchill,
[quote]Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government - except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time… [/quote]
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hippyjoe1955 · 61-69, M
@AkioTsukino The problem with the government fanatics is they think that the solution to every problem is more government. Silly them. We need government but we need extremely limited government. We don't need it to run every aspect of every life in every city in the land. We don't need it forcing everyone to get vaxed just as an example BUT we do need it to make sure that people play fair. That contracts are honored and peace is kept. I was talking to a fellow who was trying to get a gold mine going. He had the ore and he had the finances BUT the government red tape resulted in hundreds of thousands of pages of documents discussing what he could or could not do. He was a bit bemused because he had gone through the same process 20 years ago. A few hundred pages and he was good to go. Not a big deal. He left that claim in the same condition he found it with all the wildlife and wildlife habitat in place. Now he has consumed half a forest just trying to get the papers in order.
@ElwoodBlues One of my favorite books.