I Like Philosophy

@Reject that's possible... or partly.. or even largely depending on the person evaluating the facts..

I would say though..that where facts are properly derived, from information, observation, evidence.. then they are pretty black and white.. it's just that people manipulate facts and call things that aren't facts.. facts..

In the animal kingdom, they probably have little conception of what fact means.. but they know that night follows day, dark means its night, if you bite a hedgehog you are going to get prickled.. so basic facts are there.. just they may not have any conception of facts as we know them..

We humans misrepresent facts all the time.. lol some more than others..

@Adaydreambeliever Even without tampering, scientists who rely exclusively on facts are still learning new things everyday. Some that disprove or alter currently known facts. They just aren’t as absolute as people like to think they are. There’s too much we don’t know and very little we do.

@Reject Couldn't agree more... what we know, scientifically speaking changes as we learn more.. old truths are discounted, new truths reign..

I wonder if I mean facts as in irrefutable.. but perhaps you would argue that nothing is irrefutable? I can see that.. though I think that still some facts remain.. like if you poke a cactus, of a certain type, with a certain arrangement of spines, you will get a spine in your finger...

Perhaps it's that some facts that we call facts are not really facts... or we have to be more careful in how we couch these facts.. like.. "generally speaking x =y and z usually happens.. "

And what about reporting experiments.. 50 kids responded in this way... that would be a fact if they did... and if you repeat an experiment and betweenm 40-50% respond in a certain way..that's a fact.. For it to change the variables or something about the people, animals, fish etc. would have to change..but it would remain that under those circs that was a fact..

So, tentatively, perhaps there are facts.. but they are less infallible than we tend to think..

There are more questions than answers as a famous song once posited :)

@Adaydreambeliever Facts to me are nothing more than opinions with a little more outside support. “Generally speaking” is a good phrase to use because proof is nothing more than one consistent pattern among an unthinkably myriad number of variables. A mere guideline and in no way perfect. Besides, I believe that the more you focus on everything you think you know, the more you miss out on everything you thought you knew.

@Reject ooh there you go see.. I do think that quite often people are mistaking and mixing opinion and fact.. That to me is one of the problems.. Often variables can be controlled, not in all situations, which is where we have to be careful about interpreting facts.. but there are many cases where the variable are controlled or controlled to a degree, same age, same gender, same this or that.. which is how we get consistent, replicable results.. Numbers are facts... percentages can be facts... so I do think there are facts...

I do agree with you on the more we focus on what we think we know less curiosity and desire to look at what we don't know...

@Adaydreambeliever I didn’t say there aren’t facts. I just said that facts are opinions with outside support. A opinion is a personal belief, whereas a fact is a belief by many people with a similar interpretation of it. Thus outside support. Both are just human beliefs in the end.

@Reject oh ok.. one could debate this til the cows come home really.. I suppose I just feel that while some facts ARE just opinions.. thus people are misusing the term.. there are facts that aren't just opinions.. cats give birth to kittens not budgies or labradors... not opinion... If I eat a cabbage on Tuesday, it won't be in the fridge Wednesday lunch time for me to make cabbage soup.. not opinion.. I could go on but you get the picture..

For me there are facts and there are opinions.. it's just many people don't seem to know the difference.. and use them interchangeably

I think facts exist for animals, nature, natural phenomenon etc too.. but they don't necessarily have the cognition to think of them in the same way we do.

@Adaydreambeliever I can’t say I care much for people who use fact and opinion interchangeably, so I can understand that. Proof to qualify fact should be something most people agree on. Not one or some small group. MOST people. That’s the distinction between the two I think. Still whether it’s the consensus of one person, or the entire human race. I don’t think any one fact is ever infallible. Cats can certainly birth something else if science goes far enough. Cabbage might even be reconstituable if science goes far enough. Many things could possibly happen in our near or distant future. Things we would only see as fiction right now. I mean... imagine how cavemen would have felt about the smartphone?

@Reject Agreed on most of that.. yes I do think that fact has to be something most if not all agree on.. (we can't account for the idiots who refuse to believe facts no matter how much evidence they are shown tho!)
lol and I liked your inventive alternatives re facts.. if science interfered then one of the variables has changed so it's no longer a fact and no longer replicable :P

@Adaydreambeliever Yes, those idiots can have as much opinion as they like, but until they convince the human race to agree, they can’t claim facts. 🙂 It takes the proof of fact to unite everyone under one banner like that. That brings us full circle to one of my first points. Facts are always susceptible to change. This is why I try to stop people from relying too much on them. It limits their imagination and potential for discovery!

@Reject lol well I opine that... facts give us a solid base from which to explore.. to bring the tone down a notch or two, kinda like how swinging works or open relationships.. they operate best from a solid base from which to use as a springboard to dive off and explore..
Floundering around without facts as a base just leads to futile splashing around and treading water imo.. and while science often changes what is known.. it usually builds upon previous findings, altering them in some cases, adapting in others.. or reinforcing in still others..

I agree adaptations can occur in time.. but cats still give birth to kittens not lizards, cabbages eaten are still eaten, day follows night, children tend to develop physically at similar rates worldwide, people with glasses see better with optical enhancement, stones sink in water.. etc..

@Adaydreambeliever As of right now. At this current year, month, day, hour, minute, second, moment. You are right. I just hope nobody thinks that the present is all there is. One should certainly use current facts, I’d have it no other way, but see their flaws, I assure you, they are there.

@Reject Agreed and thank you for an interesting and engaging conversation. It's rare on here and much appreciated.

@Adaydreambeliever Happy I was enjoyable company today! It was nice to talk at length about philosophical matters. It’s a fun topic. Feelings mutual. ♥️