@squishy they both lied.. this is acknowledged and there are campaigns about that ongoing.. they also stretched the imagination a LOT they stated as fact things they couldnt know.. speculation presented as truth.. both sides did it.. I am sorry but it would be factually untrue to say one side told the truth and the other didnt.. they both were guilty of dirty tactics and speculation.
One such speculation was the lie that we would lose America's trade.. this was speculation and scaremongering.. it was also illogical.. people would have to be stupid to believe it.. that was the sort of thing that went on.. on both sides they made outrageous claims.. If you are a reasonable and reasoning man you know that's true..
Talking of truth.. re the NHS matter.. this was NOT the support campaign per se . it was Nigel Farage.. you have lived here right? then you know that Nigel Farage is one of the biggest jokes in the UK>> NO ON absolutely no one takes him seriously.. he has NO power here he has NO say.. he has never, and probably would never be in any position of power here.. dont forget he wasn't allied with the government.. he wasnt any kind of spokesman for the government.. he was just a loony who has the right of free speech as does anyone else.. no one took him seriously...
Re reducing immigration. this wasnt why i voted out but in actual fact it is NOT Proven that it wont reduce immigration.. it is likely it will they talk about free movement.. and sorry but any government who is in power (aka anyone but Farage) WILL appreciate that it was a big factor in the UK people's decision. so i think it will enable us to control our own borders better and to decide who can come here.. you kinda, and i mean this respectfully in the spirit of discussion, can't prove it wont.. you may have theories, you may have stats about Norway etc.. but you cannot prove it wont.. and no one can to be honest.. its unprovable at present.
I have heard the criticism re that the leave supporters within government didnt have a plan.. i accept that and say well until it happened they couldnt negotiate, couldnt really plan.. but i would temper that criticism with the fact that the stay campaign dint have a plan either.. they just had to carry on.. so it's kinda a weak criticism imo.
The two supporters of leave who have stepped down.. the reasons they did so are speculation.. sorry but being reasonable here we cannot know .. we can speculate..but it's way more complicated than that... they arent, in the context of stepping down, so much people who campaigned for leave as those in the running for replacing Cameron.. that is a different issue.. they may well have supported leave.. but that doesnt mean they want to be Prime minister... When they were campaigning they had NO Idea Cameron would wuss out now did they? Imo... Boris would have made a rotten PM... the man is a joke.. one of the least intelligent politicians on the planet.. he is sweet funny and people think it's funny if he would have got in.. my son said yea but it would have been funny..kinda like an ironic joke..hmm yea but BAD move politically... its a good thing he stepped down... i think he knew his limitations..
You use the words acceptable victory.. you tie them up with the campaign and lies.. forgetting that both camps lied and exagerated the truth.. often in response to each other's claims... acceptable.. no not really, i dont think anyone pretends otherwise.. but both are equally guilty. can you hand on heart stand there and say that the stay group didnt lie or state as truth somethign they couldnt really prove or know? Victory? well that is a matter that is subjective.. I think it was a victory.. headlines like free from shackles.. etc... we are free now..we dont have to be dictated to... silly rules and regs that made no sense and helped other countries but hindered us.. fishing quotas, milk quotas etc etc. the size and shape of apples.. ours were illegal apparently cos they werent a certain size or shape.. thus favouring french apples.. hmmmmmmmm? Victory yea... and brave.. a brave new world..
The radio said something this morning.. the pound has dropped thus affording trading opportunities, and we have countries queuing up to make trade deals that we couldn't make deals with before.. ( EU imposed rules on how much and with who we could trade dont forget) it wasnt a free market we were hindered/hampered and effectively unable to trade with whosoever we wanted to if they were outside of the EU.. In mentioning this I am trying to illustrate .. much of this is dependent on opinion.. perspective.. one can put a positive or a negative spin on anything.. we aren't necessarily dealing in black and white hard facts here.. there is sometimes no definitive right or wrong.. only opinion..
Oh and talking of opinion.. one should perhaps wonder why Americans seem so hot under the collar about this.. is it cos they love us.. and care for us and cannot bear to see their good buddies the Brits suffer any hardship? Or is it because they are more concerned about their own interests and worry that this might affect them. so they are looking out for their own interests.. so the thing we need to bear in mind.. they are hardly impartial..
American's should ask themselves too... would THEY allow themselves to be dictated to by un-elected bureaucrats from a totally different country? Would they allow them to tell them what apples they can grow.. farming practices, work practices in business.. etc? I dont think so! SO why should we?
The other thing to consider is... America seem to be under the impression that the EU were GIVING us things... something generous.. kindness.. please remember WE were putting in more than we took and supporting other countries.. often to our own detriment.
