I Do Not Follow Politics

@squishy they both lied.. this is acknowledged and there are campaigns about that ongoing.. they also stretched the imagination a LOT they stated as fact things they couldnt know.. speculation presented as truth.. both sides did it.. I am sorry but it would be factually untrue to say one side told the truth and the other didnt.. they both were guilty of dirty tactics and speculation.
One such speculation was the lie that we would lose America's trade.. this was speculation and scaremongering.. it was also illogical.. people would have to be stupid to believe it.. that was the sort of thing that went on.. on both sides they made outrageous claims.. If you are a reasonable and reasoning man you know that's true..
Talking of truth.. re the NHS matter.. this was NOT the support campaign per se . it was Nigel Farage.. you have lived here right? then you know that Nigel Farage is one of the biggest jokes in the UK>> NO ON absolutely no one takes him seriously.. he has NO power here he has NO say.. he has never, and probably would never be in any position of power here.. dont forget he wasn't allied with the government.. he wasnt any kind of spokesman for the government.. he was just a loony who has the right of free speech as does anyone else.. no one took him seriously...
Re reducing immigration. this wasnt why i voted out but in actual fact it is NOT Proven that it wont reduce immigration.. it is likely it will they talk about free movement.. and sorry but any government who is in power (aka anyone but Farage) WILL appreciate that it was a big factor in the UK people's decision. so i think it will enable us to control our own borders better and to decide who can come here.. you kinda, and i mean this respectfully in the spirit of discussion, can't prove it wont.. you may have theories, you may have stats about Norway etc.. but you cannot prove it wont.. and no one can to be honest.. its unprovable at present.
I have heard the criticism re that the leave supporters within government didnt have a plan.. i accept that and say well until it happened they couldnt negotiate, couldnt really plan.. but i would temper that criticism with the fact that the stay campaign dint have a plan either.. they just had to carry on.. so it's kinda a weak criticism imo.
The two supporters of leave who have stepped down.. the reasons they did so are speculation.. sorry but being reasonable here we cannot know .. we can speculate..but it's way more complicated than that... they arent, in the context of stepping down, so much people who campaigned for leave as those in the running for replacing Cameron.. that is a different issue.. they may well have supported leave.. but that doesnt mean they want to be Prime minister... When they were campaigning they had NO Idea Cameron would wuss out now did they? Imo... Boris would have made a rotten PM... the man is a joke.. one of the least intelligent politicians on the planet.. he is sweet funny and people think it's funny if he would have got in.. my son said yea but it would have been funny..kinda like an ironic joke..hmm yea but BAD move politically... its a good thing he stepped down... i think he knew his limitations..
You use the words acceptable victory.. you tie them up with the campaign and lies.. forgetting that both camps lied and exagerated the truth.. often in response to each other's claims... acceptable.. no not really, i dont think anyone pretends otherwise.. but both are equally guilty. can you hand on heart stand there and say that the stay group didnt lie or state as truth somethign they couldnt really prove or know? Victory? well that is a matter that is subjective.. I think it was a victory.. headlines like free from shackles.. etc... we are free now..we dont have to be dictated to... silly rules and regs that made no sense and helped other countries but hindered us.. fishing quotas, milk quotas etc etc. the size and shape of apples.. ours were illegal apparently cos they werent a certain size or shape.. thus favouring french apples.. hmmmmmmmm? Victory yea... and brave.. a brave new world..

The radio said something this morning.. the pound has dropped thus affording trading opportunities, and we have countries queuing up to make trade deals that we couldn't make deals with before.. ( EU imposed rules on how much and with who we could trade dont forget) it wasnt a free market we were hindered/hampered and effectively unable to trade with whosoever we wanted to if they were outside of the EU.. In mentioning this I am trying to illustrate .. much of this is dependent on opinion.. perspective.. one can put a positive or a negative spin on anything.. we aren't necessarily dealing in black and white hard facts here.. there is sometimes no definitive right or wrong.. only opinion..

Oh and talking of opinion.. one should perhaps wonder why Americans seem so hot under the collar about this.. is it cos they love us.. and care for us and cannot bear to see their good buddies the Brits suffer any hardship? Or is it because they are more concerned about their own interests and worry that this might affect them. so they are looking out for their own interests.. so the thing we need to bear in mind.. they are hardly impartial..

American's should ask themselves too... would THEY allow themselves to be dictated to by un-elected bureaucrats from a totally different country? Would they allow them to tell them what apples they can grow.. farming practices, work practices in business.. etc? I dont think so! SO why should we?

The other thing to consider is... America seem to be under the impression that the EU were GIVING us things... something generous.. kindness.. please remember WE were putting in more than we took and supporting other countries.. often to our own detriment.

Adaydreambeliever, so far the lies have been on the Brexit campaign only hours after winning they have already told you that they will not transfer £350 millions to the NHS per week, that there may not be a reduction in immigration and that they would hold on exiting the EU. What does that tell you about the truthfulness of their campaign. They have gone back on the three main points of their campaign.
As for not knowing you Brits, I have lived in the UK for 20 years and I have seen first hand how a large part of the population takes it's cue on Europe from rags that are anything but newspapers.
The same rags that campaigned for UK to take part to the invasion of Irak when all your EU allies told you it was a big mistake.
How did that turn up? Can you not link your actions in Irak to ISIS and the refugee crisis??
I know many voted Brexit to get Labour back...ignoring the fact that Labour is not for Brexit and that the Brexit people are further right than Cameron ever was.

As for the Greatness you want back, which is it? Your Empire?...it's gone. Do you think that you will yield in the commonwealth the sort of power you use to have as an empire? Do you think your former colonies will accept your rule again? Grow out of that dream. UK is a country like any other. The 5th power that you are only accounts for 10% of the EU GDP...at the scale of the world you are minute, like the rest of us. A lot of the clout and political power you had came from your membership of the EU, throw that away and you are left with very little authority.
As for Greece...they shouldn't hate the EU, but their politicians who lied their way into the Euro. I am sorry they suffer, but Greece needs to get its acts together and go by the rules it signed up to. The same rules everyone else follows.

I am neither from the UK nor live there but I agree with you that people had the guts to take a leap and vote to leave, to get your country back. You made it just fine before the EU and I know that you will be just fine without it. You voted to make your own decisions, to have complete control over your own country. You people are one of the greatest countries ever, in every respect, you are very resourceful ... the UK will be just fine!!! Congratulations to you!!

Squishy there were lies on both sides.. that includes the doom and gloom naysayers who were too lily livered coward to leave.. the truth is mostly no one knows - so it *was* an act of bravery on the part of the people to vote out.. as i say...
Small price for free market? but the EU isnt our biggest market and the EU effectively prohibits or makes it difficult for trade elsewhere.. before EU we had the common market.. EU effectively terminated those connections..Please dont forget we are or were a BIG cheese in the EU cos we were one of the richest and most powerful.. so who is it gonna harm if we leave? Not us!! Re the US's threats that if we leave they wont trade with us.. lol so be it but we import way more than we export.. so really silly if the US doesnt want to trade with us.. we think they will.. in fact we know so.. just watch this space...
As to the promise of money going to the NHS.. you seriously, seriously underestimate the Brit's intelligence..and you slightly misunderstand the situation behind that.. (I mean NO Insult here just trying to explain) that promise was made by Farage.. you must understand that NO ONE takes him seriously and he is less than NOTHING in this country.. he is an idiot, a creature of scorn.. so no one cared what he said he had no power then and he has no power then.. it wasnt his promise to make.. it never was and never would be.. so no one took him seriously.. that's vital to understand.
We COULD use the money for better things tho... and i am sure we will...

there's much more you said that i dont have time and space to deal wth here.. happy to talk PM. but as to the war you will know íf you were here that the Brit population were agaisnt the war.. that's a fact.. it IS well know.. Blair got us into it.. we had NO say but the general population were and still are against the war and very angry we went into it.. facts are important..

You make way too much of the newspapers.. dont forget that a) many of them say the exact opposite to each other so to get a balanced view you'd have to read all of them.. there are ones that are very left and ones that are very right.. there is NO one consensus re the *rags* and b) more importantly you must know that newspaper sales are in fact very very low.. no one reads them now.. or relatively speaking few do.. most of us never buy or read a paper now.. so sorry they too have little or no influence.. just saying...

we had NO clout in the EU that we wont have out of it.. as to the EMpire and the commonwealth they are gone.. i never said otherwise - those are facts.. WE wouldnt want them back we did some terrible things of which we are ashamed, (other countries naming no names still continue to rape and take advantage of other countries who are poorer and less well developed) as to the Commonwealth we snubbed them and lost our ability to trade and foster that relationship because of the EU . just one reason many feel it was a BAD move for the UK to even go into the EU.. we dont and never have allied ourselvs with europe traditionally.. we've always had closer ties with America etc (go figure lol) but you miss the point the point being that what MADE the empire.. the Brit spirit, the Brit determination.. is still there.. and while we may NOT Be the most powerful country on the earth, (we don't want to be!!) we do hold a thumping heck of clout for a tiny piddling little Island.. and we will continue to do so is the point.. just watch us..
SOrry but many of you commenting are doing so based on half facts and half understandings.. it's fine to debate but please remember to listen to the other side of the debate x

LOl and finally.. since this is my post.. i never wanted to engage in a lengthy debate.. just express my surprise and that i was proud of my little country on having guts...
An american friend, (lol yea I DO Have many American friends go figure!) expressed concern about our departure.. about our economy...and about the fact that we are a little island.. no man is an island was his comment.. my answer to him.. brings up the EMpire debate again, (NO I am not proud of our empire it was AWFUL but the spirit that brought about a tiny island being able to command an empire remains) so here is my reply to him...

" Don't forget our history and what we achieved as an island - we had an empire and the commonwealth..
We've never really felt part of Europe and traditionally had closer ties with America and Australia. Heard of the commonwealth? We had a great deal from the commonwealth and that was terminated when we joined the EU.. in fact many other trade deals were prohibited or made difficult because we HAD to give preference to the EU and obey by their rules... in short it was more a straight jacket than a free market....
Don't forget we have only been in the eu forty years. Seriously we'll be fine..

Oooh and dont forget too.... freedom is worth some level of hardship... we have been being dictated to by Brussels long enough.. stupid rules such as the size and shape of apples, utterly illogical and stifling health and safety rules we have to comply with.. Brits really dont like being dictated to and most of you commenting on what Brits should do.. wouldnt stand for another country or group of countries deciding YOUR fate and what you can and can't do... so sorry if some from other countries dont like it.. but the people voted.. over a million more voted out than remain.. and imo the decision was made for many well informed reasons.. we did know what we were doing and voted out despite many, many scare mongering hyped up (illogical) doom and gloom predictions.. freedom always comes at a price - we are prepared to pay it.. but you know what.. i think you guys are drastically underestimating us x"


I probably wont check on this story again.. for no other reason than i get bored easily... so if anyone desperately wants to talk to me about it PM is the way to go.. but better be sure you are willing to listen as well as offer your opinion..

@Adaydreambeliever what are the lies of the remain campaign you refer to?
And you support a camp who has within hours of winning admitted that 3 of their main campaign slogans were...''mistakes''' (Passing £350 millions a week to the NHS, enacting article 50, and reducing immigration). At the same time, they admitted they didn't have a plan and are unable to say how they will act on their victory, finally two of the campaign leaders have already stood down because they dont' want to be responsible for what comes next.
In what world is this an acceptable victory??? If you start a campaign, make claims and ask for something as radical as leaving the EU, you must be able to provide a blue print to show how you intend to do it and in what time frame.
But the Leave campaign has no plan. They do not have a clue of how they can do it. They don't even know if they can do it.

Laotzu- I changed my name to Laifu because people who knew me from EP were getting confused. Yes, I am left wing. Education and travel tends to do that to people.

(I am an American.) While I felt before the vote that staying in the EU was marginally the better choice for the UK, I can't say I think the decision was bad, or ill-advised. It does appear that non-directly-economic considerations such as objecting to forced immigration and reasserting sovereignty played a substantial part.
I think MrSquishy,imgreywlf and Laifu1, despite their sterling (pun intended) qualities, like our dear president, are badly wrong and-dare I say?- a bit to the left.
BTW, I saw several replies directed to MaoMao but see no comments from this person.

LOL a last one for grey.. i cant keep up with all your posts on this.. lol thank you i am so honoured you have shown such interest.. you believe what you say.. i get that.. but i think you are factually misinformed.. you said you hope we will be ok losing the benefits.. what benefits???? dont forget we pay millions each weeek to the EU.. please tell me what benefits exactly we will lose.. i think you will find we wont.. the EU wont stop trading with us.. and they arent our biggest market anyway... they contribute a lot to Scotland and some to wales... but not more than we pay in.. facts are important.. feel free to pm

@Imgreywolf I am afraid that for most Leave camp voters, saying they did their research means they read the Daily Mail...If they had done their research they would know that most of the claims the Leave campaign were outright lies.

I wish our president would resign for not getting his way

LOL and cause a global recession?? ooh thanks i never knew we were so powerful... who caused the last one? lol seriously it wont cause a global recession... oh and didnt america threaten not to trade with us.. who's that gonna hurt? that might well cause a recesssion there.. as to us we import more than we export re the states...

Erm Grey.. i never said anything disrespectful.. think you misread or just thought you read something not intended there.. i was merely adding to something you said.. which wasn't quite true.. you suggested that we werent told what would happen if we left.. i told you.. truthfully that actually there was a LOT of talk about what would happen.. lots and lots.. HOW is that being disrespectful to the states??? Sorry this wasnt about anything anti american.. it was just a factual correction on something you perhaps werent aware of as you perhaps werent party to the all the radio, news, and debates that we saw... here's what i wrote..
>>Adaydreambeliever · 51-55, F
@greywlf... well to be fair we were told about what would happen if we leave.. but the problem was most of it was scaremongering.. lies..most of it is untrue and the rest we cant know.<< TRULY can't see how that wa sin any way disrespectful to you or the states! Sorry if you read something into it that i didnt say.. but trust me your accusation and unpleasant words about acting like an adult were well and truly out of order..

Adaydreambeliever, One other point I must raise after reading one of your messages, the millions you send to the EU for membership represent only 1.26% of your government's budget. That is a ridiculously low price to pay for the membership into the largest free market in the world.
If British politicians were really interested in saving money they could go after tax evasion for example, that costs the UK £85 billions per year, ten times what you spend on the EU membership.

Grywolf- seriously. How are they going to do this, especially with Boris Johnson? What they have done is put in a far right government. It makes me wonder why the working class voted for this, since they will be the ones who are harmed the most.

Lovely statements that I can only fully support none of us know the future exactly but been able to mould our own future is far more fun and interesting than letting some European unelected body decide for us and even worse one unelected body no one can remove bar leaving the eu

No they basically have to agree the figures to repay or us to pay etc depending on agreements there were made in the past that kind thing,they can't stop anyone leave

@greywlf... well to be fair we were told about what would happen if we leave.. but the problem was most of it was scaremongering.. lies..most of it is untrue and the rest we cant know.

@Laifu1: Thank you for clarifying the MaoMao. Your third sentence, besides being condescending, is incorrect. I'm well-educated and well-traveled and find left-wing thinking to be an intellectual strait-jacket. [Perhaps incidentally, the historical Mao came close to destroying Chinese culture, which I respect highly. I do hope you don't venerate him.]

To ALL: the attached piece published today on marketwatch may be helpful in understanding likely motives and consequences of the vote.
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/buy-britain-but-sell-europe-after-stunning-brexit-rebuke-2016-06-24

We'll be pretty much 170 million a week better off and even better off it the scots leave yeah a win win situation I believe

Err- carpediem, I respect their vote. Did you not read what I said? But yes, I am definitely smarter than many of the people posting on here, although I did not say that. You inferred it. (cough. Sulu. cough)

@I'm grey.. i've not checked in here for awhile. but you should know when you say about the pound dropping.. it happens a lot.. the slightest panic the pound drops.. someone sneezes the pound drops.. historically this is normal.. nothing to panic about tho it was panic that caused it no doubt.. but truly it was to be expected and its NOTHING.. quite often a weaker pound will help exports.. so really there is good and bad... and as i say it's temporary and was expected.

Well, whichever way the vote went, the poor sick and elderly will lose, immigration will not change. However, if the 27 countries fail to agree two years after Article 50, what then? Nobody knows. Does the UK remain in the EU by default?

Just catching up some more.. i see you had a little rant @grey.. lol how unlike you :P seriously you don't even say who it was to!! Bless ya! Was the comment about not using a capital letter to me? LOL my my we do stoop low dont we in our efforts to win a point.. Grammar is a fascinating thing.. I love a drop of grammar myself.. well I'm a Brit and we invented it :P But your intelligence stretches to understand that grammar is situational sometimes.. when one is preparing a dissertation or a report, sure you need to dot the i's and cross the t's but on here.. when you are typing top speed and it truly doesn't matter .. it does make you a little sanctimonious to go on carping about it.. You surely KNOW that there is a world of difference between someone who knows the rules but chooses not to waste time on some of it in a totally NON important stooopid chat conversation and one who is so up their own ass that they seriously think that they are writing to an audience! Seriously mate lighten up and get a life :P

Daydream- my comments had nothing to do with what you WANTED to happen. They had to do with what WILL happen.

As I said I don't reply to those that think there special,special needs maybe but special no. No interest in what an Americans opinion is full stop

@squishy.. suicide???? lol you so dont know us Brits :P and you are being somewhat melodramatic.... not to mention lacking in facts but hey thanks for worrying about us.. dont forget we have only been in the EU for 40 years.. whatever did we do before that?? were we a poor country? nope... and we had the commonwealth.. this frees us to trade with more countries.. as we did before.. we were a bit part of the EU.. i think you will find they needed us more than we needed them.. to think otherwise is to seriously misunderstand the true picture.. Like i say.. we were a great and very powerful country in our own right before EU... we just want some of that back. to be able to govern ourselves again.
Oh and a real teller is... I heard from a greek friend.. who says his country hates the EU...and is envious we got out.. I think the problem with people who arent here is that they can over estimate the EU influence and especially how much we Brits give a damn about the EU>.. as is say WE were one of the most influential... we take away everything we had before.. suicide? COme back to me in 10 years time and I will watch you eat your words :P

The wolf has come apart at the seems. It's actually a sad thing to witness. I feel bad for you Wolfie. Take a pill.

Absolutely true MaoMao, lots of people think that voting leave will bring them a Labour government...they will get just the opposite, another pompous and out of touch with reality Etonian.

and @grey.. forgive me for not being as au fait with american politics as i might be but the perception I had was that the states hates mexico and spends half its time trying to defend it's borders from them and the Canadians.. I could be wrong. .i dont claim to be an expert but that's what ive been led to believe.. feel free to correct me.. so hmm interesting to hear you tell me that the United states is more than just america.. I was always under the impression that the united states was JUST america as south america dont call themselves american do they? and the canadians dont? Genuinely happy to have you educate me on that matter..esp if i have been misled... feel free to PM

Laotse- The Mao I was using means cat in Mandarin... It had nothing to do with the Chairman.

Cheers love, ruddy brilliant.

And what makes you the expert from accross the water lol

I agree. This was an act of courage. Close to 72% of the registered voters turned out to vote. The people spoke. Now it's time to respect their wishes. There are people that will whine and complain about it. Just read some of the comments here. Too bad. Respect the decision of a very engaged population.

Sulu- You sound highly intelligent. You obviously attended a top university and contribute a great deal to the UK. It is good to know that you contribute your fair share in taxes and take an interest in learning about the political system.

@wolf.. you are a rude person.. and uncivil.. you seem not to see that.. which is a shame.. take this for instance.. you said "Adaydreambeliever
I would have been happy to spent the 20-30 mins to tell you why you should have voted to stay, But it is to late now to help you understand how you screwed up. You voted wrong. Now as they say. You made your bed now sleep in it." so you seriously think and believe tht is respectful? you accused me of being disrespectful to the states... lol i never did.. but you have shown disrespect throughout to me.. and to the UK>. odd you seem not to see it when the boot is on the other foot..
SO lets deal with the statement above.. in your OPINION we screwed up.. you cannot know this.. you base it on your version and your understanding based on the not full picture you have been given.. ok fair enough.. but it is your OPINION only... and please show equal respect that you insist on others giving you, when you say YOU would have spent 20-30 mins telling US why we should not have voted to leave... and do NOT assume that we who live here, we who KNOW what the situation really is, we who know the facts and we who lived here before the EU>. we who lived here during the EU don't know the situation better than you do.. that's plain illogical..
As to your original accusation that i disrespected the states.. i never did - this wasnt about America.. i merely corected a totally FALSE and, dare i say it now we know you are uncivil anyway, STUPID statement that we were not told of all the dangers of leaving the EU. we were, as i say told fully and repeatedly.. it's just that a) there were no substance or proof that the scaremongering was true and b) pretty much all of it could be overturned as unproven or wrong.
Fact here is you were wrong.. i never insulted you or your country.. seems you were on your high horse about something, some personal gripe..and you dont much care what the facts are.. you seem to feel you know better... so be it.. there's no answer for that that you would listen to... so as you say yourself you made your bed lie in it..

Love that they think they know the English language lol

@squshy re the daily mail comment.. well that's clearly your opinion but factually the remain camp lied too.. they spouted a LOT of lies that were wholly scaremongering and hype..
The news today is pretty much.. life goes on as normal... and it does and it will and we will be fine.. the best way to prove the doubters and naysayers is just to wait and see..
Lets all just cool it..

@laifu.. it wasn't about class and it wasnt about government.. factually speaking more conservative rich people were in favour of leaving than working class.. and it has nothing to do with wanting a labour govt.

Very sorry to say.. i have blocked greywolf.. i dont mind a debate.. but he is just nasty.. arrogant.. anyone else's opinion is automatically wrong cos HE says so.. he will stop at nothing to belittle other people who disagree with him.. and insults people at every turn.. I dont mind people disagreeing with me but he is just unpleasant at every turn and has no manners.. sorry folks.

Carpediem- no one suggested not listening to the wishes of the British people. (Scots not included- they went for the EU). You will get your Brexit, and will probably lose Scotland as well. I just think you guys just screwed yourselves over big time. I wish the UK the best of luck. Hopefully you can transform your wishes into an acceptable reality.