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Rap, Rock'n roll - Music?

I hope it's OK to start my post by quoting others from a different thread.

@Jimmy2016 [quote]Rap isn't music [/quote]@bijouxbroussard [quote]Old people originally said that about rock and roll, too.[/quote]

They (we!) were right about a lot of it and still are 😀. Some of it doesn't seem so bad in hindsight because now there's a lot of stuff that's so much worse. Depends a bit on how you define Rock & Roll, or even just 'music'.

Although it could be music that you like, it's very often spoiled by the sound board guy or engineers who think you need to have the bass & percussion instruments louder than all else; and that what used to be called a singer's accompaniment should be the main event, so the instrumentals get super-amped and the vocalist is partly drowned out with lyrics mostly lost.

Music can have melody, harmony and disharmony, simplicity or complexity, beat; variations in rhythm & volume. It can be calming, exciting or inspiring. It can have a message too. I suppose 'rap' is meant to have a message but I can seldom make it out. If it has none of those other attributes I think calling it music is preposterous.

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TryingtoLava

Rap is music! Its kinda arrogant to say something isnt music cuz you dont like or understand it :| like is jazz not music cuz some peeps dont like it?

bijouxbroussard · F

@TryingtoLava Exactly right.

Itsmrsockmonkey · M

Well I don't like it myself as a guitarist , jazz is real music as well as anything except vulgar lyrics spoken instead of singing such as rap.. It's evil imo@TryingtoLava

TryingtoLava

@Itsmrsockmonkey thats not rap im sorry you havnt heard a real MC but no music is evil

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Itsmrsockmonkey · M

@TryingtoLava I believe the bible and rap is a product that is evil. If you like it, fine, just how I feel and think

Really · 80-89, M

@TryingtoLava My reason for saying rap is not music is not that I don't like it or understand it (which is often true) - it's that so much of it doesn't include enough of the elements essential to my concept (and the traditional meaning) of 'music'. Maybe it is shifting to include more of them along with the patter. But much of that is delivered at a too-high high speed, in vernacular slang & accents too unfamiliar, for me to understand. I [u]can[/u] enjoy music in languages I don't know, but only if it's what I myself experience as musical; i.e generally has more than one of the elements I've named.

There's poetry I really like but I don't have any reason to call it music. I notice that some defenders on here are already arguing over what is, or is not 'rap'.

To me, calling rap by the name music is a bit like referring to... Oh, hell, I know I had a good analogy but what was it??? 😀

TryingtoLava

@Really whats it missing that makes it not music? Ik musical jargon i studied it so plz explain better

dubkebab · 51-55, M

@TryingtoLava I've attended music school...I'm listening...

Really · 80-89, M

@TryingtoLava I suppose what's missing - or over emphasised - for me depends on the example we talk about; and still might not be easy to define. Reaction to music can include emotional, psycholoical and even cultural aspects. They may be hard to analyse but all will likely be specific to any given performance. I think I've done the best job I can (without having studied musical jargon) of identifying what I will think of as music, in a very general sense - and hopefully without 'arrogance'.

You shouldn't assume any of this lets you predict whether I will call any particular thing music, and/or whether I will like it.

dubkebab · 51-55, M

@Really I feel fortunate to classify whale songs,throbbing gristle and Wu-Tang Clan as great music.Please enjoy what you will,but don't try to define terms for those of us who appreciate well established musical art forms.

TryingtoLava

Really · 80-89, M

@dubkebab I know a bit about music too, but without having attended a music school. Sang in a few vocal assemblies including some acapella just-scale, true harmony experience; great fun. Could have been a reasonable pianist but hated the practice. Never became a sight reader but I can usually puzzle it out (not bursts of Chopin etc.)

None of which, I think, had much influence on what kind of music appeals to me. Those preferences were forming much earlier. I clearly remember being charmed by simple tunes and harmonies around the age of 4. Vera Lynn comes to mind. Nice melodies, nice voice, nice messages & hopeful sentiments. Not a rapper 😀 😀.

dubkebab · 51-55, M

@TryingtoLava [youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NDWgtB_MD24]

Really · 80-89, M

@dubkebab @TryingtoLava What's really missing that makes it (rap) 'not music' for me is a common understanding of what either of those words signifies. It's really a semantic issue, but all tangled up with whether each of us likes - or does not like - this or that performance, so decides it should have this or that label.

bijouxbroussard · F

@Really [quote] My reason for saying rap is not music is not that I don't like it or understand it (which is often true) - it's that so much of it doesn't include enough of the elements essential to my concept (and the traditional meaning) of 'music'. [/quote]
Whether you mean it to or not, that sounds rather chauvinistic, similar to those who think non-western music “isn’t music” because it may not conform to European guidelines or standards. It [b]is[/b] a form of arrogance.

Really · 80-89, M

@bijouxbroussard [quote]Whether you mean it to or not, that sounds rather chauvinistic[/quote]

I don't think so , Bijoux. How something 'sounds', how the speaker or his/her intention is judged by the hearer, is a function of the ear and thoughts of the hearer - who could easily be quite mistaken.

The words by themselves have only an intended meaning; nothing more. If the intention is doubted one can ask for clarification. Is that what you're doing?

I'm surprised that you could diagnose chauvinism (whatever you mean by that) from my attempt to express my reasons for not using the word 'music' when referring to 'rap'.

bijouxbroussard · F

@Really

[quote] I'm surprised that you could diagnose chauvinism (whatever you mean by that) from my attempt to express my reasons for not calling using the word 'music' when referring to 'rap'.[/quote]

[quote] [b][i]chauvinism[/i][/b]:Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own gender, group, or kind.[/quote]

Or in [b]this[/b] case, music.
Does that clarify my meaning ? 🤨

Really · 80-89, M

[quote]... that sounds ... similar to those who think non-western music “isn’t music” because it may not conform to European guidelines or standards.[/quote] Why are you sidetracking by introducing issues about nationalism and "western" (?) music, which have no relevance for me, in this present context? They have certainly not been part of the discussion before now. [quote]It is a form of arrogance.[/quote] What is? If you direct that comment at my behaviour, caharacter or intention, I hear it with diappointment - and vigorously reject it.

Accusation of arrogance is a type of personal criticism that I always hope can be kept out of these discussions.

Really · 80-89, M

@bijouxbroussard [quote]chauvinism:Prejudiced belief in the superiority of one's own gender, group, or kind. Or in this case, music. Does that clarify my meaning ?[/quote]
It clarifies your meaning but not its relevance here. Superiority is a concept you are introducing. I don't think it's been been claimed before on this thread; certainly not by me.

bijouxbroussard · F

@Really You don’t think so ? You don’t see where dismissing someone else’s music as not even music because it conform to your standards is arrogance ? And I can’t claim to know your motives (which is why I conceded [quote] Whether you mean it to or not,[/quote]), but of course on some level there’s an element of superiority. To be classified as music (art, dance, poetry, etc.) it has to fit within the parameters that you and your ilk use to define those things. Otherwise, it’s not.

Really · 80-89, M

@bijouxbroussard Whatever you say....😢