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Should Scotland become independent?

Nicola Sturgeon, the Scottish First Minister and Scottish National Party (SNP) leader has just announced that Scotland will be having a second referendum. This follows hot on the heals of the last referendum but she believes that Brexit (which a majority of Scotland voted against) gives her a fresh mandate to do this.

As a left-wing Englishmen, my own thoughts on this are somewhat conflicted. The political argument for independence is something that I have a lot of sympathy for and indeed some of the English left support Scottish independence. Scotland has a social democratic majority and hates being ruled by the more Conservative England, as do I. The selfish part of me wants the most anti-Tory part of our country to stay and help build a left alternative from within the UK. However, the Labour Party is miles away from power and if Scotland could successfully form a left-Scandanavian state to the north of us, then their good examples could show us a better way.

Is this likely to end well though? Scotland has economic strengths but is dependent on oil, which has halved in value globally. In addition, the Scots would either need to join the European single currency area, which is increasingly neo-liberal and increasingly disintegrating itself; or stick with a shadow pound, which would leave them at the behest of The Bank of England. I am no fan of single currencies with separate Governments anyway, because national economies are rarely that compatible with each other and when the s**t hits the fan, its always the weakest who get screwed. Look at Ireland and southern Europe as examples of this happening nearby.

All in all, I understand the temptation for Scotland to leave the union but I would not back it if I lived there. It would make the country poorer and would leave them economically vulnerable. However, I am no fan of UK politics in general and if they do vote to leave I very much hope that I am wrong.
CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M Best Comment
I sympathize with the Scottish independence movement, but that's purely on an emotional level. When you get down to 'What's best for Scotland' I don't really have a dog in this fight and I don't think there's a good answer or outcome.

Stay with Britain and get tied to what most people will assume is the post-Brexit nightmare, as well as politically tying yourself to a powerful conservative movement. But stay with the EU, and you've hitched yourself to neoliberalism which is being rejected violently around the world.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
Very much so. Choose your poison.
CaptainCanadia · 41-45, M
I have some Welsh friends who make it clear the only thing they hate more than England is the idea of Scotland leaving the EU because it ensures they will be doomed to conservative leadership forever.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@TyphoidJerry: British politics is in a very bad state whichever way you look at it. We have Brexit and a divided left (inside and outside Labour) keeping the Conservatives in power.

SW-User
I was definitely rooting for Scotland to remain part of the union the last time they had a referendum for independence. But Brexit has changed all that. Now I hope they do become an independent nation. I think that they could do very well, there would be a period of upheaval but eventually they would flourish.
Northwest · M
I understand the temptation to flip London off, but I believe a Scottish exist is the wrong thing to do.

Protectionists, race and religion warriors don't see it, but airplanes, the Internet, and automation, among other things, the world IS going to be a single market and a single population.

It's a matter of when, not if.

Scotland's forward thinking population, will help the UK move in the right direction. Without the Scots, the UK may suffer longer inside its, soon to be implemented, isolationist bubble.
Northwest · M
@Burnley123: Automation, like Marxism, applied to people who have not had time to prepare for that kind of change, will create authoritarianism.

There are multiple startups, pushing automation in the restaurant business. At this point, it's possible to completely automate the process of making salads and hamburgers.

When I was in high school/college, I had a job in a restaurant. First in food prep, and then serving it. We know we can apply automation to food service. We can apply it to liquor service. I've designed a system that can eliminate bartenders. I did it as an experiment, and connected it to the supply chain, but did not deploy it.

What will happen, if these automated systems get deployed today? About 1 in 5 Americans has worked at McDonalds.

What happens to the hundreds of millions of manual laborers in India, Pakistan and China, if we automate their jobs? and we can do that, if not today, within a few years.

You will be left with hundreds of millions of uneducated, non-skilled people, who would like to feed themselves.

I am not proposing a solution for tomorrow, or the next decade. I'm projecting centuries ahead. What I see is a single world "government" where people can engage, as a collective, but not as "drones", incapable of individual thought, beliefs, etc.

In my part of the world, and even though Trump and the alt-right are worried about a Muslim takeover, the Chinese and Indians are taking over. More than 50% of $1M+ properties are selling to the Chinese, and more than 50% of Condos are ending up in Indians hands. The Chinese are here, because it's crowded and polluted in China, so the elite is escaping to a place, where they can buy a house, on a lake, with a Cascades backdrop. The Indians are escaping similar conditions, and joining the local tech industry. The latter tend to have less money, because they did not earn it running sweat shops.

But, I digress... :-)
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Northwest: I agree. Technology has potential but you have to look at power structures and those who weild it. Humanity has never been organised under horizontality or egalitarian lines. It could and should be but struggle is needed to achieve that. I know you are talking about the future but that is not inevitable. Good discussion though.
Northwest · M
@Burnley123: Power structures have been part of us, since day 1, and will probably stay with us. That, along with ego, pride, etc., etc.

This is why Marx wanted a dictatorship, because no one is willing to give up what they have (not exactly no one, but the power elite, will not).

Yes, good discussion, but I remain hopeful, that one day, people will evolve and the euphoria produced by power, can be replaced by something else. You may still have leadership, but it will be a different type of leadership.
SW-User
I think people have to be brave and put the short term economics to one side. If people have a deep lying desire for self determination then they should vote for it. In the long term i think it's nonsense to say Scotland couldn't be a viable state. Look at similar sized neighbours, Ireland, Norway, Denmark. As an Englishman living in Scotland it does feel like a foreign country, and it's not just because i don't understand the language. It's always had separate legal and education systems, it's a far more open and inclusive place than England. On the other side, what's the prospect of remaining in the UK, continued declined and neglect from Westminster. I share your concerns about the political future for a conservative dominated England, but it's not going to affect the way i vote. On a personal level I work for a company based in England who's business is closely linked to EU regulations, so some interesting years ahead.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Onecharmingman: For me this can very much succeed because of the arguments. The biggest argument against Scots Indy was economic uncertainty but the SNP can shoot back that hard-Brexit means that anyway.

Tory Government ministers will do more harm than good and Labour is too weak and divided. Corbyn may be liked but would struggle to sell the idea of a plausible left-wing UK. Kezia Dugdale is a transparent careerist as well as being uniquely useless. Ruth Davidson is quite strong but is a Tory and is compromised by the Tory hard-Brexit strategy.

If I was betting, I would bet on a Yes vote.
SW-User
@Burnley123: The no campaign is considerably weekends by labours disappearance from Scottish politics. No prospect of Gordon Browns great clunking fist this time. To avoid being hypocritical, i would apply the same logic that i think should have been applied to the Brexit vote. If you want to make a significant, irreversible change to the way a country is run the onus should be on the leave party to get a decisive majority, not just a simple majority of the people who vote. Won't happen though. There's a good video from Richard Dawkins doing the rounds that sums up my view on Brexit completely.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Onecharmingman: Yes I've seen that.
Meisje · 31-35, F
I'm a UK citizen as well, and grew up some in Scotland and some of my family is Scottish. Some of my family would like to be independent, and I like the idea as well. However, as a PhD student at the best uni in Scotland, we get a fair amount of funding. If we become independent, the funding would have to be split equally, which could be detrimental to the research at my university. I think if Scotland wants to be economically independent a plan needs to be made as to how this will happen. A serious plan needs to be outlined. Also, if Scotland becomes independent, it would take a while before we could join the EU due to the financial status and such.
ajoite · 51-55, F
I'm a big fan of Sturgeon, I think she would have made a good PM. I wanted Scotland to get independence, because I believe alot of the UK is forgotten, unless it's in London and part of the home countries. I know alot of Scottish people who don't currently reside in Scotland, voted Brexit, for tactical reasons, and it worked
I'm hypocritical, people voted on both brexit and Scottish Independence and that should stand, but I do hope that Scotland gets independence eventually
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
I think Sturgeon would have been a good PM. Alas, she is not someone who would have come up through the ranks of the 90s Labour Party.
LUVELACE · T
Most people here in Ireland would say they would like to see Scottish independence and a United ireland with England as a stand alone entity,but realistically looking back over Scottish history I can't see it happening for so many reasons,financial n economic,and the historical underhandedness of the scotch lards n clans of old,we in Ireland face a hard border between north n south because of a Union Jack and NATO.ireland is an independent nutural country so we have no choice in a hard border,it's take it or leave it,even Irish passports issued under the good Friday agreement become void,meaning the north of Ireland is only entitled to British passports.yet the uk pumps 400.000.000. Into the 6 counties for a 10% return good business sense,this brexit was never thought out properly n will lead to some very hard n dangerous times ahead,but I do believe that no county should be denied its independence n freedom,provided it can stand alone n be a successful country in its own rights,but sadly the economy of Ireland n Scotland are intertwined with Britain n in that lies its downfall,but for all the Celtic nations I hope I am proved wrong some day,
Goralski · 51-55, M
OMG your post ain't about trump
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
Other countries like have their own political shit dude.
I'll confess I don't know a great deal about politics, I know some, not much.
I have a question though, if Scotland does become independent, does that automatically mean they get to remain in Europe? Will they not have to prove their stability first?
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
We could be fast tracked into the EU. Also more and more of the SNP support want us to have our own currency and feel the big scare over the pound was to make us want to keep it so we are still at "the mercy" of the Bank of England.
@thatscottishguy: but what if you're not fast-tracked into the eu?
thatscottishguy · 26-30, M
Doesn't bother me. Don't really care for it. Can't see them turning down our application though.

 
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