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Should England open up schools in early June?

Those lovely people at the Daily Mail (Daily Heil) certainly think that we should:



There are one or two problems with this newspaper story. Well, there are dozens but I have to summarise to make this post readable. Let's start with the Mail's lying. The vast majority of teachers are against opening the schools at this time. Nobody thinks its a good idea. Everybody thinks its a terrible idea. The unions are doing merely what you would expect in trying to protect their members. The newspapers here heavily support our Conservative government and have seen their physical sales and advertising revenues collapse during the pandemic, so they are pro easing the lockdown.

As I've said many times, easing the lockdown before you have proper test-trace-isolate procedures puts you at risk of losing control of the virus. France has fewer cases than us and better (well... less inadequate) testing procedures and even they are having problems trying to open up.

Schools are a particular issue too. Even the limited re-opening which the government are bringing in will create massive virus spreading centres. The lower end of Primary school is due to be one of the first back. Yes, these young kids are very low risk in terms of dying but they are very high risk in terms of spreading the disease. I work as a primary school teacher myself and let me tell you that the zero chance of getting children between four and six years of age to social distance effectively. Anyone with any experience of a primary setting thinks that this is nuts, which it is.
SW-User Best Comment
This is my classroom. I teach Year 6. We shouldve done SATs last week. This week we wouldve been getting ready for our production and going on a boat down the river.
It normally fits 30 children, my height, and a TA, plus up to 2 other kids on time out.
It's all measured out. Those tables are 2m apart. It fits 9 at a push. I wont be able to move from my desk once the kkds come in.

We had to take their work odd the walls and bin it. If the kther year groups come back, we cant fit.

I get given a mask and gloves and a face shield if I have to do first aid. EVERYONE will have their temp checked before they can come into the building. I will be living in a bubble with my group.

I'll go home, to my vulnerable child, who should be going back also. But if I say no to going back, then I dont get paid.

Fuck the daily mail and the fucking government. If theyre not going back to work, why the fuck should the kids.
MrSimons · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 So, just lock down those who are vulnerable and make sure the kids stay away from them. If you have kids who have underlying conditions, don't send them back. Same with staff. That seems to be the most sensible idea to me, otherwise we are going to be prisoners to this thing for God knows how long.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MrSimons Im not sure you have read my post and certainly havent read the article. Easing the lockdown before you have the virus under control doesn't even make sense on an economic level.
@MrSimons We are prisoners to this thing for God knows how long!!!

Do you know for sure how long immunity is going to last among those who have already had the virus once??? No, I thought not.

What are you going to do if this thing peaks again come September??? The public aren't going to take kindly to another 3 months of lockdown after losing most of spring to it... and that's before you even tell them that there is no Christmas this year. But, it doesn't matter just as long as the vulnerable remain isolated in the way that you don't want to, does it.

Have you even considered that none of us actually want to be isolated anymore than you do???

Let's just presume for a moment that we do send children back to school on June 1st... Yay, parents get rid of them for a few hours a day.

How is social distancing going to work in practice??? In some schools, corridors aren't wide enough for pupils to pass each other maintaining a 2m distance, even if they hug the walls.

Class sizes down to 15... half each class size - where are you going to teach the half of the class that doesn't have a room??? Even if you use halls, gyms, dining halls etc... indoor space is going to be a problem.

Alternating years... yeah, until Johnny in year one gets the virus and it spreads like wildfire - How are you going to deep clean the school everynight???

No parents on school grounds - Okay, add to the chaos already on the public footpaths outside school, not only making it harder for children to find parents but for Joe Public to go about his business too.

Second Peak... as the weather cools in the autumn, there's a chance this thing could come back again... what then???

Sick bays... not all schools even have a place for injured children to get first aid in a private setting. What happens if Rosie starts showing symptoms during lunch break??? Stick her in the corridor and infect the entire school.

No, if the government reopens schools, then it is the teachers and parents duty to not turn in and save us all from a second peak.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@HootyTheNightOwl Absolutely
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@HootyTheNightOwl Also, its hard enough to social distance now, when we have the key worker kids in. I do support us looking after key worker kids but it just illustrates how ridiculous it would be to opem half the school.
RodionRomanovitch · 56-60, M
For children that age , and the minimal effect it will have on their overall education , it's simply not worth the risk.

We've got no intention of sending ours back before we see where this thing is going.

Thanks for reminding me just how dishonest the right-wing tabloids are in the UK. Another thing I certainly don't miss.
BlueVeins · 22-25
'Hero' is a label society slaps on the people it's screwing over so it doesn't have to feel so bad about doing so.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@BlueVeins Exactamundo.
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
I want to know what are they going to do IF this idea goes horribly wrong ?

Are they going to make the children wear masks and gloves ? Seems like the kind of environment that would probably necessitate it to me.
And if not, where's their 'protection' ?

In any case. It's just wrong to 'herd' children together just because you want their parents to go to work for you.
SW-User
@Picklebobble2 mask and gloves for kids is down to the parents. The parents at my school can't afford them
Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M
@SW-User I'd be surprised if the parents around me could even FIND protective masks and gloves !
I've had some on order since the beginning of MARCH as i live with a vulnerable older person. And NOW they tell me delivery won't be until the first week of JUNE !

This whole thing is demoralizing and desperate. And i'm afraid it has shown since day 1.
SW-User
@Picklebobble2 🤦‍♀️
SmartKat · 56-60, F
“Let our teachers be heroes?”

IOW, let’s have our teachers risk getting sick from infected children, and the children risk getting sick from each other and from teachers - let’s reopen the schools before we’re sure it’s safe.

Are your conservatives [b]trying[/b] to out-stupid the U.S. conservatives?
SmartKat · 56-60, F
@Burnley123 I just love people who insist that [b]other[/b] people should be “allowed to be heroes.” That was some interesting use of words. A lot to unpack there.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SmartKat Absolutely. Mail journalists and their oligarch backers are not volunteeting to leave the house!
@SmartKat Trump University reopened... runs classes on how to run a country!!! 🤣
MrSimons · 41-45, M
@Lacemaker Well, I probably should have said that I have always been in favour of parents having the choice not send their children back if they are really not comfortable. What my hope is though (and it's probably not a realistic one with such short time) is parents will be persuaded over the holidays that it is safe enough to do so. I also don't think it has to be all or nothing. There would certainly concede that there may be very good reasons for some children not attending. They could live with people in vulnerable groups, or be in a vulnerable group themselves.

I am not sure how effective the teaching will be, but I am sure it would be better than none. I think initially they would be quite unsettled. We would have to ease them in gently. After a day or so though, I we you could achieve some learning. You can get quite a bit of teaching in. We are talking half a term. Some of the children will really benefit because not all schools have been good at sending home work or setting up remote learning. Some of the disadvantaged children have had very little learning time at all. Even if what we can achieve is only limited, it will be better than nothing. Just Reception and Year 1 kids doing some phonics, which they may not have done for months, will be of benefit. Of course, this will only be of benefit to the year groups attending, but I don't think should refuse to teach some just because we can't teach everyone.

Year 6 can be prepared for secondary school, and also have the opportunity to say goodbye to their primary school properly. I think that's probably the most important benefit for them. I worked in a primary school last Year on a temporary contract for a year, and the Year 6s saying goodbye, putting on their production and getting their shirts signed were all bitter-sweet acts performed in that final half term. It would be a great shame if the present Year 6s don't have the opportunity to do any of that.

Giving parents their well deserved break and getting the economy back on track are not benefits to be sniffed at. I do have to question Mr Burnley when he says nobody is confident that it's safe enough to return to work. I know a lot of people are, but surely it's not just naughty people like Peter Hitchens, Brendan O'Neil and James Delingpole who would go back to work and go to the pub if allowed to?

I really am not blind to the concerns of teachers and parents who are worried about their children going back. I do suspect that some of the motivation by the unions is dislike of the Tories, but I know there is also legitimate concern. But I think with some care, having a phased return with some special measures (hopefully not too many), it could be safe.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MrSimons Agree with a lot of this. I am in favour of having sixes and fives back to get them ready for high school and next years sats respectively. Social distancing is impossible with the little ones.

As for unions motivated by hating the Tories, whilst true, its not a good reason and their position would be the same if a Lab govt tried to do it.

As you say, a big factor is parental confidence and that is not there. I worry that without proper testing proceedures there will be a second wave of the virus and undermine confidence further.
MrSimons · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 Oh right. It seems we don't feel that differently after all. I could live with the year groups that go back first being different to what has been decided. What you say about sending the Year 5s back first makes sense.

Have you been in school throughout the lockdown working with the children of key workers and vulnerable children? Or have you been providing remote learning? Or perhaps both? I would be interested know how you have been handling things like social distancing, so I know what I might expect if I am fortunate enough to get some supply teaching in June.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MrSimons I have and im on rota for next week. There is a bit of teaching but its not ideal. Mostpy its just games and childcare. Social distancing is difficult with older primary children but impossible for younger ones.

I would let 5s and 6s in for the last two weeks, to say goodbye and to transition.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
Well, we opened them in September and loads of them have had to lockdown again. Including my school.

We have to re open cos its been so long but ten days into term we got a couple of kids with symptoms and had to lockdown two bubbles. For obvious reasons, parents got no notice and have had to change all their plans for two weeks.

Im reduced to giving work on the school blog and posting funny memes to keep the kids motivated.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SW-User Thanks, you too
@Burnley123 I went by a local primary school yesterday and what I saw wasn't pretty.

There was no social distancing outside at all - just a line of parents and children crammed against a wall and out onto the street.

I don't see how that's going to help the "class bubbles" when members of the public are trying to squeeze by children and parents as they walk down the street.

They may have been better opening the school yard for dropping children off at school rather than using the main entrance in this case... and, yes the school yard is accessible from the street - unlike at other schools.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@HootyTheNightOwl Our school has systems quite a lot better than that but we still had to lockdown.
Platinum · M
With the summer holiday not to far away, I would not open schools until September ....we had a 12 year old die yesterday from the virus and that means kids can die from it....they are making schools as safe as possible but nothing can be guaranteed....so I would wait...
MartinII · 70-79, M
@Platinum If you kept schools closed because a child might die, you would never open them at all. As to the summer holidays, cancel them or halve their length.
smiler2012 · 56-60
@MartinII well to be fair if a child dies at school under usual circumstances it would be a really a tragic freak accident but with corona virus the risk to your childrens health is higher odds especially more so the younger one not understanding the danger of corona virus and transmit it too others
Platinum · M
@MartinII you can't compere a freak accident at school with corona, they are completely different.....it's not only the children, school teachers and their families and the parents as they take and collect their children....for safety reasons, missing school for six months, won't hurt them as it can be added over the next few years....they opened in France and a child died and they closed eight schools and we don't need further disruptions....I'm a Tory and like Boris , but they have made so many mistakes and I don't want more deaths just because they went back too early...
Northwest · M
They should stick to Open Marriage stories.

I have no experience as a primary school educator, but I think until the numbers are really under control, sending kids back to school, is a recipe for disaster (no matter what country this is).
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Northwest Yeah, the Mail is the National Equirer meets Fox News. Its the paper with the biggest online readership in the country though that is more for the first comparison than the second.
maturedragon · 26-30, M
primary schools should stay closed for longer, but secondary schools should open earlier than primary I think
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@maturedragon Its a fair point because you can do better social distancing with older kids.

However, you couldn't do that even at secondary level with the whole school in. There simply isnt the space.
MrSimons · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 Ok, I am trying not to be argumentative. Maybe I was a complete idiot for listening to to Spike and Peter Hitchens, but when do you think schools will be able to return? Because I really get the impression that some people are not going to be happy until there is zero risk of catching the virus. Maybe we will have contact tracing in place in September, but will that be enough for parents and the teaching unions to go back? And my concern over the social distancing measures that they seem to want to put in place, that's not because I lean towards the "libertarian right" supposedly. That comes from working with kids, knowing what they are like and really not wishing to inflict it on them.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MrSimons I have no problem with you. We disagree but you are polite and argue in good faith.

A key thing to understand is that the economy has not collapsed because of the lockdown. People started isolating when Johnson was still taling about handwashing and parents took their kids out of school before the official lockdowm. We were on about 25% before that happened.

We need proper test, trace and isolate oriceedures and we sont have it yet. Germany and Denmark are running tbings right.
Platinum · M
The old saying , better safe than sorry....from what I've heard they are only going for a couple of days a week and as the six weeks holiday comes in July , they would be safer to wait til September ....the risks of kids spreading the virus to teachers and parents is just not worth the risk....schools could add an extra six months at school after leaving dates. I read that a school in France had a pupil who caught the virus and they closed eight schools in the area.....it could happen here...they should not make everyone's sacrifices a waste of time.....
MartinII · 70-79, M
Actually, almost everybody thinks it’s a good idea except teachers, and some “scientists“, both of which groups have axes to grind. It’s interesting that one of the political side effects of the virus has been the reopening of the traditional divide between producers and consumers. Producers - teachers, public transport workers, sports teams and many others - tend to be very reluctant about returning to work because they fear they might contract the virus, despite the overwhelming evidence that if they are under 60 and don’t have a heart or lung condition they have nothing to fear. Consumers - schoolchildren and their parents, students, people trying to get to work, sports fans etc - tend to have a different view. You and I would probably be on different sides of this divide, even were you not a teacher and I not retired!
MartinII · 70-79, M
@Burnley123 No. There have been 55,000 excess deaths in the UK this year (figure from today’s Times). The current total for coronavirus-related deaths is just over 36,000. So there have been about 19,000 extra deaths from other causes. In the absence of any known specific explanation for this, one must assume that most of these are indirectly related to Covid-19, in particular the result of treatment for other serious illnesses being withdrawn or delayed. (The true figure will be somewhat greater than 19,000, because some of the deaths attributed to Covid-19 will have been of elderly or ill people who would have died anyway.)
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MartinII Id like to see those figures. However, without the lockdowm we have many more deaths.
MartinII · 70-79, M
@Burnley123 See today’s Times, headline “Covid-19: Britain has higher rate of excess deaths than anywhere in Europe.”

As to whether there would have been many more deaths without the lockdown, we simply don’t know. Instinct, circumstantial evidence and scientific orthodoxy all suggest it is likely, but there is no counterfactual, so no hard evidence. Everyone affected has had lockdowns. Even Sweden, which claims not to have had a lockdown, actually has, but more permissive than most.
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Platinum · M
@fairefoutre you don't call the way you talk, is English ....at least you are funny....
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Platinum · M
@fairefoutre that ain't even English , dickhead....😂
ninalanyon · 61-69, T
> they are very high risk in terms of spreading the disease

This appears not to be true

Kindergartens and primary schools have been open here in Norway for two weeks and junior and senior high schools opened again last week. The high school students work at school on alternate days so that they can sit further away from each other in class. I don't see any reason why the UK should not be able to do the same.
MrSimons · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 I wasn't aware he had stopped on the journey. I will have to go and re-examine that.

I really am not trying to be argumentative for the sake of it. If Dominic Cummming really is guilty of lying, then he should resign and probably Boris Johnson as well. I suppose Cummings does come across as a bit of a sociopath at times.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@MrSimons He hasn't denied it and govt officials have refused to give an answer so go figure. Nobody can do a 270 mile journey without a refil.
MrSimons · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 You're probably right then. He should be sacked.
smiler2012 · 56-60
burnley123 even backing the governments crazy scheme to send the young kids back first which seemed impractical granted cases may of been on the down turn then cannot remember exactly but the whole idea of sending kids back with no provision same class sizes and corona virus around well would you calling that courting disaster
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SW-User I support staying open for key worker kids and vulnerable children as a compromise. But yes even that has a cost.
smiler2012 · 56-60
burnley123 it boils down to this the daily fail is like most tabloid newspaper in the united kingdom who are a mouthpiece for the conservative party and government of the day and hate the unions and a open critic of them
It seems too soon. I bet no ministers will be sending their kids back to school until after the summer.

They should say what they mean, they want teachers to be child minders whilst they try and get the economy running again.
smiler2012 · 56-60
@InOtterWords yes method in there madness
Elessar · 26-30, M
Not even a pandemic is sufficient to modernize the system into letting people at least [i]choose [/i]between old-school frontal lessons and some potentially newer approach (pre-recorded video lessons, e-learning, et al).

I thought it was primarily an Italian problem, but it seems to be global. 😪
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Elessar I think its good exploring new ways of doing things. Big caveats though.

1) We are currently sending videos, online games and worksheets to the parents and the parents are good. None of them think its a good substitute for a classroom environment.
2) Kids are social creatures and are really bored given theu have been at home so long.
3) The kids i teach are six and seven so i really dont think a new approach can work with kids that young. Even at an older age, the kids just get apathetic when the novelty wears off.
4) My school is against using Zoom calls due to safeguarding issues. However, even if you had an integrated system like Google Chromebooks have where the work is synergised with the powerpoint and the teacher has control, this would not be as good. Im moderately tech savvy for a teacher but i dont think i could teach a whole class a good lesson using this method. A group of six would work ok but no more. You need to look around a classroom, not a screen. The kids need partner talk time.

I think if they do move away from the classroom method, it would be a costcutting method that weakens education. My experience of what you say has convinced me of that.
Elessar · 26-30, M
@Burnley123 Oh I know that it'd be harder if not impossible to implement for kids, but actually what I'm suggesting could be applied to universities and high/mid school at least, i.e. students that are 14 and older (or even 11 and older), who could definitely benefit from a learn from home approach, and not only during this pandemic, and who wouldn't face as many difficulties as children nor require constant physical supervision.

Many of the spaces currently reserved to high school could be reallocated for kids, also potentially solving or at the very least compensating the other big problem that is overcrowded classrooms, and that at least over here existed for long before this pandemic.

The real reason why this doesn't happen IMO is that if students can choose to learn from home a lot of them won't spend anymore in public transportation, rents, eating out, and all those businesses that survive primarily thanks to them. And the same is true also for workers from home, in fact many politicians (in particular local administrators in big cities like Milan) are doing their best to oppose it and push for "re-entering workplaces in safety".
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Yes.They may be closed in Wales until March.
@TheSirfurryanimalWales Sadly, Wales might have the better idea...
@HootyTheNightOwlEverything I hear from the Assembly worries me.They seem determined to keep us in lockdown forever more.I am seriously considering moving across the border.But officially I cannot travel to England.
@TheSirfurryanimalWales They're just being more cautious, which has to be a better approach than rushing into things now, only to find yourselves having to clean up again later.

The problem with England is that the schools just aren't big enough to cater for the approach they now want to take - and they haven't factored in that it's just not going to be possible to cram all the students in and have social distancing at the same time... even if they use a rotation system, how long is the deep clean between switching groups of children.
eMortal · M
No. They should definitely be closed for at least 3years just to be sure.
eMortal · M
@Burnley123 even proper testing procedures won't reassure you. Keeping them closed is the only thing that calms liberals.
Wordlover · F
@eMortal yawn
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@eMortal You are literally too stupid to insult.
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Lacemaker It will be glorified babysitting. Its pretty much all we can do with key worker kids anyway. Obviously this is aimed at re-ooening the econony but it wont work because nobody has confidence that the virus is under control here.
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MrSimons · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 May I just ask, have you been in school teaching the children of key workers and vulnerable children? Or have you just been providing home learning? Or maybe both? What social distancing measures have you been using? I asked because it would be nice to know what I might expect if I am fortunate enough to get some supply work in a few weeks time. As I said before, trying to enforce social distancing measures with young kids is not something I relish.

I am sure you're doing a great job by the way.

 
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