Do you value individual liberty or do you embrace collectivism?
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CopperCicada · M
Both? Neither?
We have eroded our individual liberties for a variety of purposes. Asset forfeiture. Warrantless searches. Loss of property and assets to eminent domain. Our privacy is forfeited to big data. We have technologies hoisted upon us without any public dialog. The air, water and vistas we enjoy is up for corporate grabs.
So we have individual liberties. More than most places. But they are getting picked apart like a turkey carcass.
And we have collectivism. We are social mammals. This is naturally who we are. We are tribal. We certainly have tribal politics in America. It's become one of the first things we ascertain about people. Same with religion. And if you don't fit clearly in the tribe, then you're shunned. Sports and the consumption of products another tribe.
We just suck at collectivism and tribalism re fixing actual problems. Don't even want to pay taxes for the common good. If there is a catastrophe then we go all tribe, but day to day, we tend to only help those in the family, church and political tribe.
So. Which one? Meh. We fuck up both.
We have eroded our individual liberties for a variety of purposes. Asset forfeiture. Warrantless searches. Loss of property and assets to eminent domain. Our privacy is forfeited to big data. We have technologies hoisted upon us without any public dialog. The air, water and vistas we enjoy is up for corporate grabs.
So we have individual liberties. More than most places. But they are getting picked apart like a turkey carcass.
And we have collectivism. We are social mammals. This is naturally who we are. We are tribal. We certainly have tribal politics in America. It's become one of the first things we ascertain about people. Same with religion. And if you don't fit clearly in the tribe, then you're shunned. Sports and the consumption of products another tribe.
We just suck at collectivism and tribalism re fixing actual problems. Don't even want to pay taxes for the common good. If there is a catastrophe then we go all tribe, but day to day, we tend to only help those in the family, church and political tribe.
So. Which one? Meh. We fuck up both.
bijouxbroussard · F
@CopperCicada Alas, ‘tis the truth of it. 😒
Theseus · 46-50, M
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
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CopperCicada · M
@JoeyFoxx I actually agree with what @sarabee1995 is saying-- [i]with the exception that responsibility need not involve a sacrifice of freedom.
[/i]
It is the sacrifice of freedom involved in assuming responsibility that causes people to avoid responsibility.
[/i]
It is the sacrifice of freedom involved in assuming responsibility that causes people to avoid responsibility.
JoeyFoxx · 51-55, M
@CopperCicada Ahhhh... this is a bit of a Kant-styled discussion. Kant concluded that even when someone acted selflessly, that there is always an inward facing motivation.
I believe that @sarabee1995 is suggesting that if I [i][b]choose[/b][/i] to sacrifice a freedom on my own, then I am not sacrificing my liberty.
I believe that @sarabee1995 is suggesting that if I [i][b]choose[/b][/i] to sacrifice a freedom on my own, then I am not sacrificing my liberty.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@CopperCicada I think in practice we are saying the same thing; but in theory (which is where I often find myself) I struggle with the concept that my exercising my free will to help those in need in anyway lessons my freedom.
@JoeyFoxx Yes, Joey, that is exactly what I am saying. Which differs from a collective telling me I MUST give some share of my labor to those less fortunate.
@JoeyFoxx Yes, Joey, that is exactly what I am saying. Which differs from a collective telling me I MUST give some share of my labor to those less fortunate.
SimplyTracie · 26-30, F
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@SimplyTracie Yup 😔
SimplyTracie · 26-30, F
@sarabee1995
I like these words too:
"conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal"!!
I like these words too:
"conceived in liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal"!!
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@SimplyTracie Abe had a way with words. I love the whole speech. :) And love that he wrote it himself.
Sambriggs96 · 26-30, F
JoeyFoxx · 51-55, M
@Sambriggs96 [quote]We live in a much more liberal society today than in the past.[/quote]
Do we though? The Declaration of Independence was a very short document. The full text of the US Constitution can be read in an afternoon: http://constitutionus.com/
We were a society based not on lots of rules that could never be broken, but on a series of principles that underscored the true nature of who we are as human beings.
From this liberal mindset, we have devolved into a conservative, nothing-must-ever-change mindset where we argue over the semantics of words instead of finding collaborative solution.
What drives me nuts about the "liberal progressive" movement is the implication that we need to progress into the future. What we need is a way to reach into the past and remember what the great experiment was all about.
[b][i]Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.[/i][/b]
Can any of us be truly happy if we have made our neighbor miserable? I think not.
Is that the same as collectivism where we all think homogeneously? I think not.
Do we though? The Declaration of Independence was a very short document. The full text of the US Constitution can be read in an afternoon: http://constitutionus.com/
We were a society based not on lots of rules that could never be broken, but on a series of principles that underscored the true nature of who we are as human beings.
From this liberal mindset, we have devolved into a conservative, nothing-must-ever-change mindset where we argue over the semantics of words instead of finding collaborative solution.
What drives me nuts about the "liberal progressive" movement is the implication that we need to progress into the future. What we need is a way to reach into the past and remember what the great experiment was all about.
[b][i]Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.[/i][/b]
Can any of us be truly happy if we have made our neighbor miserable? I think not.
Is that the same as collectivism where we all think homogeneously? I think not.
Sambriggs96 · 26-30, F
It's human nature to feel happiness from making others happy. Liberalism has a focus on the individual and collectivism on society. It's a balance again, because you want to be happy but you also want the rest of society to be happy
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QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
Cierzo · M
Individual liberty should always be the starting point. Then every person decides how much of their freedom they are willing to sacrifice to belong to small collectives (family, community), and then to bigger ones (nation, humanity).
The problem are the ideologies that define people in the first place as a member of a collective, and then (if at all) as an individual.
The problem are the ideologies that define people in the first place as a member of a collective, and then (if at all) as an individual.
SatanBurger · 36-40, F
Both. In evolution we were in packs because it's easier to protect each other. Alot of people were raised in extended families, lots of support but the downside to collectivism is also discrimination. So both are needed for balance. In order to have a just society one has to set aside their biases for the better of the world.
Moosepantspatty · 31-35, M
JoeyFoxx · 51-55, M
I believe that collectivism is a bit of a false construct, attempting to have humans emulate ants. It's terribly impractical.
It's a bit ironic too that those that tend to support collectivism also seem to embrace individuality and cast aside societal expectations of behavior. It doesn't seem to be consistent.
I think the version of liberty as defined by the US Declaration of Independence is what I support the most, including the implications that my liberty cannot trample yours.
I support individual liberty. I support the notion that each of us has the right to do what allows us the broadest expressions of who we are, within the responsibilities that we have to each other as members of a larger community.
It's a bit ironic too that those that tend to support collectivism also seem to embrace individuality and cast aside societal expectations of behavior. It doesn't seem to be consistent.
I think the version of liberty as defined by the US Declaration of Independence is what I support the most, including the implications that my liberty cannot trample yours.
I support individual liberty. I support the notion that each of us has the right to do what allows us the broadest expressions of who we are, within the responsibilities that we have to each other as members of a larger community.
Pfuzylogic · M
Theseus · 46-50, M
@Pfuzylogic No. It was not enough. It won't be enough until the philosophy of mob sanctioned theft has been thoroughky crushed. It won't be enough until satanic socialism is nothing more than a faint memory.
CountScrofula · 41-45, M
SatanBurger · 36-40, F
I understand people hating collectivism because of dictatorships but I think it's an unfair comparison when compared with how many rights we've gained.
It's through collectivism we've gotten things like the right for gay people to marry.
How do you define what and to what varying degrees of individual liberty each person gets?
It's through collectivism we've gotten things like the right for gay people to marry.
How do you define what and to what varying degrees of individual liberty each person gets?
Allelse · 36-40, M
I think that I should be in charge of everyone, yep, that'll work. And all the morons get sent to monster island.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@Allelse But wait ... I thought they were appointing me sovereign over all I survey! How can you be in charge?? 😤
Allelse · 36-40, M
@sarabee1995 I did? That's alright, I'll just amend things then.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@Allelse 👍️
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