What are your thoughts about robots doing certain jobs rather than humans?

@SW-User There are already some places that use Kiosk ordering

@Phire1 Actually they have just announced at my local McDonalds this weekend that the all the counter staff will be replaced with kiosk ordering even the drive-thru :o

@SW-User It does legitimately [i]ruin[/i] the very core concepts of capitalism, which is based around the idea of abstracting human work hours into currency. If a human is no longer involved in producing the income it breaks the entire system, allowing massive amounts of wealth to be completely locked out of the vast majority of the system. The entire economic system has to be restructured to deal with widespread mass automation. We're already seeing it, it's not a "future" thing. Amazon is literally this.

@UndeadPrivateer Until Amazon can replace humans picking and packing orders, humans will work there. But, to my understanding, there are places where AI is picking and packing the orders

@UndeadPrivateer Yes that's true. But like you said with capitalism, i don't see how that system can work if nobody has any money to buy the products. If all the work was done by robots then there would have to be a more socialist type of system i guess?

@Phire1 I saw a video clip of this huge distribution warehouse that was completely automated. Apparently the only thing slowing it down was the power of the computers that process all the orders. Can't remember the company though.

@SW-User Maybe socialism would work, we need to figure out a solution to the corruption issues inherent with socialism if that is indeed the solution. Not sure what that looks like, post-capitalist society has never happened on Earth, so literally no human knows what that actually functionally looks like. Probably as different from our current system as capitalism is from barter.

@Phire1 Yeah, their warehouses are full of packing robots. They're working to phase out human workers as fast and thoroughly as possible, and they will absolutely get there. Warehouse work is perfect for robots. Most menial work is. Problematic things for robots are skilled labors and design work, though that may still fall prey to them eventually. Who knows?

Personally, I think the real solution to this that doesn't involve humans just dying off is for humans and AI enter into a symbiotic relationship, enhancing each other. If that's even a thing that's viable.

@SW-User There will be people to buy the orders. Perhaps there is a shove to get more people to learn STEM jobs? I have seen that.

@UndeadPrivateer Yes the corruption issues would be a huge issue to overcome. It'd be interesting to be around in another 100 years to see how things develop.

@Phire1 The concept of more STEM education is a great thing, but it's not really a solution unfortunately. Not everyone is really capable of STEM work. And there are also issues with how the STEM field is currently functioning that is [i]very[/i] vulnerable to automation. Specifically, intern jobs are [i]very menial.[/i] Those are the majority of entry positions. Whatever the solution is, it's definitely not STEM. Though STEM is undoubtedly a part.

@UndeadPrivateer It's already viable being that I'm using a computer to talk here. The collaboration between human and AI is useful but not at the expense of peoples' lives, imho.
Homeless people are degraded for not spending enough time looking for a job. What people do not realize is that some homeless shelters allow people only 10 minutes per day to use their specifically provided phone. Some people bitch about poor people needing a phone. How else are poor people supposed to look for and apply to jobs without a phone or computer/internet access? The times have changed since I was a teen applying to jobs via paper applications and literally having to find a way to go from place to place. There is also the issue of the Digital Divide.

It is really hard to keep up! Vulnerable populations cannot keep up due to many reasons but, corps do not always seem to give a shit. Social Darwinistic attitudes have been going on for a long, long time.

@Phire1 The argument that we need to slow down is, unfortunately, not a solution either. This is an Industrial Revolution just like the last ones. We didn't slow down for the luddites then, we won't now. All we can do is try to find viable solutions where we can. Honestly, there are a lot of ways this [i]could[/i] work out well if we can all band together and figure out the specifics of how to make it work. I think we can all agree that our current solutions to the homeless problem are insufficient and just do not work well at all. We need to find a solution to that.

And yes, there does need to be some solution to the digital divide(though it is rapidly shrinking). We also need to cut down on human resource consumption in general and microgeneration, in more layman's terms locally producing products as needed, is much more efficient in overall resource use than mass production is. I think there are some obvious places where those two areas overlap.

@UndeadPrivateer It is touted that STEM is a solution to higher paying jobs. I agree that not everyone is "cut out" for STEM education or jobs. It's sad to see some people out there want to MAKE people agree to that in order to degrade them.
Math is not my favorite subject. It has been of my older son, but not my younger son who is majoring in Computer Science.

Interning is interning... might get hired, might not. I've been told that it's rare that an intern gets hired by interning. Have to actually apply to the jobs just like everyone else does, imo.

@UndeadPrivateer Based on what I have learned via college, service work is dominant and progressing in the U.S.

@Phire1 I'm not touting anything, personally. I openly admit STEM is not the solution. As mentioned, both skilled labor(stuff like electricians and welders and the like) are not very vulnerable to automation in the next 20-30 years and design work is also not very vulnerable to automation out into the foreseeable future. So all kinds of art and creative jobs are also wide open. There's lots of opportunity. Also, as mentioned prior, locally produced wares sold at local businesses should be incentivized and much more thoroughly embraced to reduce overall resource consumption.

It's not the intern job itself that matters, it's that you have the intern job on your resume. Every job wants experienced workers, how do you get a doctor who knows how a doctor's office is run if they've never worked as an intern and seen it behind the curtain?

@Phire1 Service work jobs are some of the most vulnerable in the next 20 years, unfortunately. :/ It's not a great situation there.

@UndeadPrivateer *I* think some of the most vulnerable jobs are service jobs. I don't have any issue with tech/vocational schooling, or learning from a family member or friend. I don't think college is the Only way to better-paying jobs. Many do think that way. And many think that if a college student takes on the student loan debt that they should pay it regardless of loan forgiveness for some jobs.

There is No 'ONE' solution to poverty and homelessness.

With over 7 billion people, how is human resource consumption to be curtailed? I don't think it should be about food or water.
Electricity consumption is not going to change any time soon (minus solar usages in limited places).

The issue with locally produced products, even with fruits and vegetables, is that it costs more to do so here... especially, with a large population. Produce is healthy but doesn't last long on the shelf. Poor people have to find food that costs less which is not as healthy. Other products not food related are outsourced jobs because the labor cost is less than here. Why is labor expensive in the U.S.? Because the cost of living here is expensive. Landlords charge rent as how they see fit based on the realtors' determination. Some landlords increase the rent every year a certain percentage that does not coincide with a person's wages. I moved into a two bedroom apartment that was $700 a month. By the end of 4 years there, my rent was $1000 a month. I had to move. And it was a fucking whirlwind to do so, along with a lot else in that timeframe. But, employers do not give a fuck.

@UndeadPrivateer Someday, I'll tell you the story about working for a place that was sued by the FTC while the employees got nothing but fired/laid off.

@Phire1 Welcome to the collapse of capitalism. This is why we need practical solutions that [i]aren't[/i] capitalistically driven. There is no actual magical line in the sand that makes living more expensive in a region. That is a result of these shortfalls in the idea of capitalism itself. This has been evident all along in the wealth divide and outsourcing labor, it has just entered a very acute stage now.

@UndeadPrivateer I'm 45 yrs old, there is no "welcome" to it. It's an old azz thing that needs to drop on it's knees and beg for forgiveness.
I think there is a way to have all the components without screwing people over.
Can't implement a new system where one has already been implemented. It will take time to change things - won't happen overnight.

@Phire1 It's already changing. As said, this is not some future thing. It is literally happening right now. And yes, there will be casualties. There already are, the suicide rate is sky high right now because of it. That's not an exaggeration either, there are studies that have found very strong correlations with people rendered obsolete by automation and suicide. Casualties just like in the last three industrial revolutions. Didn't stop for the luddites then, won't stop for them now.

It's an adapt or die situation, unfortunate as that is. What we need is to figure out how to better adapt these vulnerable populations so they don't feel like they'd rather kill themselves than face reality. How we get there is going to be tricky, but we need to do it as soon as we can because the bodies are piling up as we speak.

@UndeadPrivateer One of the arguments for automation is that it's good for employees because all the boring repetitive jobs will be made obsolete and then the employees will get more interesting higher skilled jobs which will become available in the automation/robotics industry. This just assumes that they'll get retrained, they'll have that capability and there will be jobs for them.

@Phire1 Your understanding of the issues around homelessness is spot on. I'm fortunate not to be homeless but for the past 4 years i've been a few pays away from it. Yet it's an impossible thing to explain to most people as most where i live, live in double income households with both in full-time jobs. I used to be in this situation too when i was married and i also thought that homelessness was impossible for me. Yet i have learned how it can become a reality for anyone.

A lot of people become homeless here simply because they can no longer afford the rents even though they have a job so it's not because they are lazy. I have a neighbour who hasn't had electricity on for over a year. He cooks over a fire in the yard and he has a job.

@SW-User The technocratic argument is very valid, the problem lay in that it's pretty normal for people to play up the best parts of a system they support and downplay any faults. Technocratic societies do have an issue with retraining and logistics that are troublesome to tackle. Overall it would absolutely be beneficial to society to cut out backbreaking menial work even just from a purely medical related perspective, regardless of the psychological and economic benefits. Robots don't develop RSI, arthritis, silicosis, heavy metals poisoning or any other workplace related disease, which the medical sector then has to deal with and which in turn taxes the whole system.

The homelessness problem is one I'm very, very familiar with as a Bay Area resident and someone who has been a hair's breadth from homelessness more than once. I've lived without electricity for months because money was so tight I couldn't make the power bill. It's definitely something that needs to be dealt with.

@UndeadPrivateer I agree, and ideally we'd have a fully functioning society where all the health damaging jobs are done by robots while people get to enjoy working in other more meaningful roles. It's how we get to that point that concerns me since it's all economically driven rather than socially.

It's a tough situation being at that point close to homelessness. I am about to go through winter with no heating but i am thankful that i can still keep electricity on for lights and cooking.

@SW-User Yeah. I agree wholeheartedly with that sentiment, how one goes from capitalism to post-capitalism is really difficult. How one sets up a system from within a capitalistic society that is not driven by capitalist ideas is difficult to even conceptually wrap one's head around. But it is something we don't really have a choice in, this current trajectory already has us well into the realm of unsustainability. We're already starting to hit the point where so much wealth has been locked out of the system that the majority of the population can't afford anything more than basic cost of living. If we keep going like this it [i]will[/i] drop below even that threshold.