Are Messi and Ronaldo all-time greats?

Some people have a criterion which is to say that you can only be an all-time great if you have won the World Cup. After today, that World Cup win clearly ain't gonna happen to either of them.

I think this is retrograde thinking. It comes from a time when football players stayed in their own country their entire career and nobody else had ever even heard of them until they played in the World Cup. These days the Champions League knock-out stage is a higher standard than the World Cup because you get all the best players pooled together in a single competition. Yes, there are some great national teams but very very few happen to be balanced. France specialise in producing athletic players, Spain in passing midfielders and Argentina in strikers. Also, Brazil can't exactly go out and sign a full-back from another team if they have a weakness in that position.

Messi and Ronaldo are superstars at the highest level of club football and have been for a decade. Both post crazy goal-scoring stats that otherwise only exist in computer games and have also demolished some of the best teams on the planet. It shouldn't count against their record that neither has been born into a great national team. Messi is the best club footballer of all-time and Ronaldo's career is almost as good.

Yes, they are all-time greats.

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Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M

Oooh !....controversial !!

I mean i wonder if they are just extremely lucky to have been playing at a time when money ruled the game and so allowed them to come to the fore a lot easier than at any time previously ?

They have both been around at the inception of 'exclusivity football' and the subsequent explosion of social media and 'media-savvy' agents.
They both happened to be around at a time when it's common for football players to be 'global' rather than 'local'.

You're right in that their stats are off the charts in comparison to their peers. But some of that has to go down to those they have had the joy to work with.

Disappointed that even with their 'greatness' they couldn't win a world cup ?
...... Tough one ! i mean Shearer and Owen and Beckham were pretty prolific at club level.
But hard as we tried we couldn't put eight other English players alongside them to win anything.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Picklebobble2 I don't think its controversial.

Yes, Messi and Ronaldo have played for great teams but great teams usually have a top scorer who is an outright striker and gets 25 goals a season, not a winger who scores 45 goals a season.

Pele scored a thousand goals but most of those were in the Sao Paulo State League. Maradona was also amazing but only really had about five years at his peak. Messi and Ronaldo have had ten years at a peak.

The English players you mention never really did much in the Champions League, which I maintain is the highest level of football now.

Picklebobble2 · 56-60, M

@Burnley123 I still think it largely comes down to those with whom you have to work with.
Messi cut a really sad figure this tournament in amongst......i'm not even sure what you can call that Argentina squad, but it was certainly the poorest i can ever recall.

And for all this chat. What's the betting 15 guys who play their football in Brazil are going to win the world cup this year ?

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Picklebobble2 Of course in any team game, who you have to work with matters greatly. I don't think its fair to judge Messi's career over these four games anyway because he's 31 and (as you say) playing in a really poor Argentina team.

Football is globalised now but that doesn't mean that things are necessarily easy for the great players. Real and Barca are expected to win every week in Spain, even away from home. The Spanish League is still one of the best three leagues in Europe. Also, look at their Champions League records. That is against other superstar teams.