Do you have issues or questions regarding evolution theory? Why don't you accept the theory of evolution? [Spirituality & Religion]

Do you mean we don't know how everything began?

No I mean that there is not sufficient causation. When ever you ask about why you get 'because' but there can be no cause in a purely material existence. Things simply don't work that way.

@hippyjoe1955: Im not sure what you mean. What is an example of insufficient causation?

In the beginning was nothing and nothing happened to nothing for a very long time until suddenly for no reason whatsoever nothing exploded and became everything. Them some time later bits of everything again for no reason whatsoever organized themselves and became dinosaurs.

@hippyjoe1955:

So you were actually referring to the fact that we don't know how everything began.

As far as i'm concerned that's no reason not to accept evolution.
God could well have created through evolution.

As for nothing becoming something, I assume you'll make excuses for why god requires no cause or reason. You accept one un-caused cause and reject another for no reason other than personal preference.
Accurate or no?

What I am referring to is lack of causation. Material does not provide causation.

Here is a rock. It is material. It is in space and time. What will the rock do?

@hippyjoe1955:

I don't know man. On a quantum level something appears to come from nothing. Things can be connected even though they are nowhere near each other.
Spontaneous generation could just be another part of physics we don't yet understand.

But im not sure what you're disagreeing with. What is the difference between a "lack of causation" and "we don't know how it began" ?

And why do you accept god as an un-caused cause?

@hippyjoe1955:

[quote]What will the rock do?[/quote]

Turn to sand at some point lol

God is the Cause. He is not part of this Creation. he is beyond this creation. He is 'SUPER NATURAL'. He is that which we can never understand. His EXISTENCE is beyond our understanding. While we can not understand it we certainly witness it in our own beings. We are made of matter and information. Information is not material.

@UnparalleledMonster: No it will be a rock forever. There is no cause for it to do anything else.

@hippyjoe1955:

See, that really falls in line with [quote] I assume you'll make excuses for why god requires no cause or reason[quote][/quote][/quote]

I'm not very impressed by the unverifiable, faith based claim that god is the un-moved mover.
There's no reason to believe that other than you crave and answer to a question as yet unanswered by science.

You accept one un-caused cause and reject another based on no rational foundation.

Actually my rational is much more reasonable than yours. It is more rational to believe that Something beyond our material existence is Sufficient Causation than expecting a rock to turn to sand when there is no cause for it to be anything beyond a rock.

@hippyjoe1955:

Sorry, believing that an ultimately powerful being who has always existed for no reason and created everything is more [i]rational[/i] than saying "this is how it happens, we don't know how it started" ?

Actually i think you're wrong there.
That's just a tremendous argument from ignorance.
We don't know how it happened, therefore it's reasonable to assume that an eternal magician did it.

Can you explain that reasoning to me? Break it down

After you. You explain why a rock hurtling through space would turn to sand.

@hippyjoe1955:

Well i supposed it could come into contact with other particles, large and small which could deteriorate it.
But when you said "time and space" earlier i assumed you just meant time and space as in reality.

So now kindly provide that explanation requested in my previous post.

No that is external causation. I said it was a rock in space. Now please go back and explain why the rock became sand.

@hippyjoe1955:

Well you didn't specify a non external causation. Rocks don't do anything so the rock will do nothing if nothing acts on it.
What point are you trying to make?

That material has to have a cause to do anything. Whether it is a rock breaking down to sand or sand becoming a rock. There has to be a cause and the cause of materialism does not explain our existence.

@hippyjoe1955:

Well all you've really shown is that a rock won't do anything if nothing acts on it. Doesn't really touch subatomic particles that we deal with in quantum theory which, as i mentioned, can indeed appear to arise from nothing.

But Ok. Cool. A rock does nothing when nothing acts on it.

So now can you explain your reasoning that we don't know how it happened, therefore it's rational to assume that an eternal magician did it?

Why doesn't that rock become something else?

@hippyjoe1955:

We've already done one of yours.
Now let's be fair here and you answer my question

If a rock can not become something else than something else can not become something else either. You keep making my point but don't see it.

@hippyjoe1955:


Uhh no. You gave one specific example of something that won't change if nothing acts upon it. And you are conveniently choosing to ignore my references to quantum physics because it doesn't fit your narrative.

So for the final time, how do we get from ignorance to the "rational" conclusion that there is an all powerful, eternal intelligence that exists outside of time and space and has no origin?