To Skeptics Who Believe In Evolution: Where Will Your So Called ‘Science’ Be Then? [Spirituality & Religion]

@hartfire seems like a normal stock standard way of looking at things..

[quote]If I met God, I would hope that entity would recognize that I'd done my best to love, and to live with honesty, integrity and responsibility.[/quote]

Yeah humans want to qualify.. Make the grade.. earn it.. Make it.. and the,,you don't get something for nothing thinking.. Of course that's the way humans relate to humans it's how we earn other peoples admiration respect and even love..

But God is not a human being.. His thinking is not like human thinking.. People way too often humanize God..

@hartfire actually, principles of science change all the time. That's why we don't have a luminiferous ether nor a Planet X

@hartfire Based on science and evidence there has to be a Supernatural Being of Supreme Intelligence and Power that created the universe. There is no other plausible explanation. Chemicals don't generate life forms. There is information in even a single celled creature and there is the ability to use that information to do what needs to be done to stay alive. No that information is not rudimentary. It is so complex we humans can not even understand how it works. Materialism is a completely busted explanation of how things came to be.

@Adstar First, I am an atheist. I don't believe it's even remotely possible that the god of the Old Testament could exist.
However, I am willing to accept something when I see the proof. Actually meeting God would constitute proof, even if it happened after death. I find even the thought itself absurd - but the question is based on a hypothetical proposition, so I am considering it as such.
From my point of view, humans create their concepts of gods, and even within the faiths based on the Old or New Testaments, there is no agreement between the sects on exactly what their God is. For some he is a patriarch who behaves like a spoilt and jealous three-year old megalomaniac. For others, it is an entity with no gender, so remote and mysterious that humans cannot possibly imagine the traits or capacities. There are many permutations in between, but I never encountered a concept that made sense to me.
If the difficulty is that I am human and therefore incapable of conceiving the nature of god, then what difference does it make whether or not I believe in the unconceivable?

@ImperialAerosolKidFromEP By principles of science, I refer to the basics of the laws of physics and also method.

The tools of measurement have grown more sophisticated and sensitive, and will continue to do so.
But the basic methods of hypothesis, experiment and then testing for reliability have continued to remain the same since first developed.
Mathematics develops as new algorithms are invented, but the logic of numbers does not and cannot change.

Certain laws in physics are so reliable that we can treat them as inescapable facts.
We do this unconsciously with gravity when we put down an object and expect it to still be there when we return. We trust gravity when we walk, run, through a ball or drive a car.
We rely on Ohm's Law for electric power everytime we turn on a light.

Here are just some of the laws of physics we rely on in everyday life:
1.Archimedes Principle
The principle was discovered in 3rd century B.C. by the Greek mathematician. Archimedes. It states that when a body is partially or totally immersed in a fluid, it experiences an upward thrust equal to the weight of the fluid displaced by it that i.e. its apparent loss of weight is equal to the weight of liquid displaced.
2. Avagadro’s Law
In 1811 it was discovered by an Italian Scientist Anedeos Avagadro. This law states that equal volume of all gases under the same conditions of temperature and pressure contain equal number of molecules.
3. Ohm's Law
It states that the current passing through a conductor between two points is directly proportional to the potential difference across the two points provided the physical state and temperature etc. of the conductor does not change.
4. Newton’s Laws (1642-1727)
Newtons Law
Source: www.hannibalphysics.wikispaces.com
Law of Gravitation: Objects attract each other with a force directly proportional to the product of the masses of the objects and inversely proportional to the square of the distance between them. Hence, for objects on or near the earth, the mass of the earth is very much greater than the object, and so the gravitational force between them makes objects fall towards the earth. That is why lead and feather fall at the same rate in a vacuum.
Newton’s First law of Motion
A body continues in its state of rest, or of uniform motion in a straight line, except in so far as it is compelled by external impressed forces to change that state. It is also called Law of Inertia.
Newton’s Second Law of Motion
The rate of change of momentum is proportional to the impressed force and takes place in the direction of the straight line in which the force acts. In other words “Force is equal to mass multiplied by acceleration”.
Newton’s Third Law of Motion
To every action there is equal and opposite reaction. This is the principle behind the recoil felt on pulling the trigger of a gun.
Newton’s Law of cooling
The rate at which a body cools or loses its heat to its surroundings is proportional to the excess of mean temperature of the body over that of the surroundings, provided this temperature excess is not too large.
5. Coulomb’s Law (1738-1806)
The force between the two electric charges reduces to a quarter of its former value when the distance between them is doubled. The SI unit of electric charge, coulomb, is named after Charles Augustin de Coulomb who established the law.
6. Stefan’s Law (1835-1883)
The total energy radiated from a black body is equal to the fourth power of its absolute temperature.
7. Pascal’s Law (1623-1662)
- When pressure is applied to a fluid, the pressure change is transmitted to every part of the fluid without loss. Hydraulic machines like the hydraulic press work on this principle.
- Atmospheric pressure decreases with increase in height. The SI unit of pressure is pascal which is named after Pascal who established this law.
8. Hooke’s Law (1635-1703)
This law states that the extension of a spring is proportional to the tension stretching it. Doubling of the tension results in the doubling of the amount of stretch.
9. Bernoulli's Principle
It states that as the speed of a moving fluid, liquid or gas, increases, the pressure within the fluid decreases. The aerodynamic lift on the wing of an aeroplane is also explained in part by this principle.
10. Boyles's Law
It states that temperature remaining constant, volume of a given mass of a gas varies inversely with the pressure of the gas.
11. Charles's Law
It states that pressure remaining constant, the volume of a given mass of gas increases or decreases by 1/273 part of its volume at 0 degree Celsius for each degree Celsius rise or fall of its temperature.
12. Kepler's Law
Each planet revolves round the Sun in an elliptical orbit with the Sun at one focus. The straight line joining the Sun and the planet sweeps out equal areas in equal intervals. The squares of the orbital periods of planets are proportional to the cubes of their mean distance from the Sun.
13. Law of conservation of energy
It states that energy can neither be created nor destroyed but it can be transformed from one form to another. Since energy cannot be created or destroyed, the amount of energy present in the universe is always remain constant.
14. Tyndall effect
The scattering of light by very small particles suspended in a gas or liquid.
15. Graham’s Law
It states that the rates of diffusion of gases are inversely proportional to the square roots of their densities under similar conditions of temperature and pressure.

@hartfire
[quote]First, I am an atheist. I don't believe it's even remotely possible that the god of the Old Testament could exist. [/quote]

Why? like just give me one reason..

[quote]However, I am willing to accept something when I see the proof. Actually meeting God would constitute proof, even if it happened after death.[/quote]

One can assess the Message of the Bible to know that He is..

[quote]From my point of view, humans create their concepts of gods[/quote]

That's true in a lot of cases.. Made up gods and misinterpretations of the will of the actual God.. But this does not disprove the existence of the actual God of all existence..

[quote]and even within the faiths based on the Old or New Testaments, there is no agreement between the sects on exactly what their God is. For some he is a patriarch who behaves like a spoilt and jealous three-year old megalomaniac. For others, it is an entity with no gender, so remote and mysterious that humans cannot possibly imagine the traits or capacities.[/quote]

The fact that many religious people disagree about God and his will does not then prove the non-existence of God.. It just shows that there is a lot of different interpretations out there about God..

[quote]but I never encountered a concept that made sense to me.[/quote]

Is that because there is no accurate concept out there or is it to do with your disagrerements with the accurate concept out there?

Disagreement with God does not disprove the existence of God..

[quote]If the difficulty is that I am human and therefore incapable of conceiving the nature of god, then what difference does it make whether or not I believe in the unconceivable?[/quote]

But is that the actual situation? Or has your disagreement with the will of God caused God to prevent you being able to understand?

[b]2 Corinthians 4: KJV[/b]
3 "But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: {4} In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious Gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them."

@Adstar First reason: I was born into an atheist family and raised that way. By the time I first met anyone with faith in a god I was 14 and found their ideas preposterous.
Later, I studied comparative religions. It fascinated me to discover the vast range of different beliefs, but none have ever seemed even remotely plausible to me.

I've read three versions of the Bible all the way through. I do not accept that the Bible is proof of the existence of a god.
Humans wrote the Bible; it could not exist in any other way.

No god means no such thing as a will of god, therefore there is no will to disagree with.

If your god existed and had the powers of omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence then all things would be exactly according to that being's will and could not be anything else.
You would then be caught in your own trap; every unbeliever is so by your god's will.

@hartfire You spewed a lot of nonsense in defense of the indefensible. Too Funny. The principles of physics do not determine whether the God Hypothesis is valid or not. Might as well say there is no God because the sky is blue and water is wet. Try to use chemistry to explain the existence of life and you will soon find out that it can not happen. How then is there life except by a Designer.

@hippyjoe1955 That sounds to me as though you've never studied science.

@hartfire I have both studied and worked in research. We were trying to extract oil from dirt the most efficient way. Great fun. It lead to realize that what I had been taught was crap and that chemistry doesn't lead to life. Ever read Dean H Kenyon's book Chemical Predestination?

@hartfire [quote]If your god existed and had the powers of omnipresence, omniscience and omnipotence then all things would be exactly according to that being's will and could not be anything else.
You would then be caught in your own trap; every unbeliever is so by your god's will.[/quote]

Everything that is happening is allowed by God to happen for a time.... But not forever.... God does allow disbelief.. Evil.. and the resultant suffering that those things entail.. For a time.. They play a part in His Eternal Plan..

Those who hate His will are given over to disbelief and delusions.. But to those who accept his will He draws them into an eternal relationship with Him..

See the above i quoted from you is no cause for me to doubt God..

@Adstar I don't expect you to doubt God - nor do I wish to persuade you to my way of thinking.
I would like you to accept the fact that I am not open to believers attempting to evangelise me.

As I said way above, if after death it proves that I've been wrong, I will accept whatever comes.

As for how things are now, I'm happy with life as it is now, and I will be happy to die and cease to exist when the time comes.

Frankly, I've rarely been impressed by believers.
There are a few whom I have great respect for. The Quaker, M Scott Peck, the Catholic Mathew Fox, the Jew Fritjov Kapra, and the Anglican physicist Paul Davies are a few.
But on the whole, most what I've witnessed with the majority is profound hypocrisy. Believers would answer that all are sinners and religion saves. But I don't see no evidence of repentance, reform or any sign of being saved.
If anything, I see gullibility, bigotry, often cruelty, dishonesty, and lack of love and compassion.
These behaviours turn me off, fill me with revulsion. I steer clear.

@hartfire [quote]If I actually did meet God, I wouldn't need to believe; I'd simply accept the new evidence.[/quote]

Jesus said to Thomas after He was resurrected, "You see Me and believe, blessed are those who have not seen Me yet believe.

[quote]It wouldn't change anything about science, because all the principles of physics and how they apply to the material world would continue irrespective of a judgement day.[/quote]

I was talking about their pseudo science, not science itself. Science was ordained by God to show us His creation and how He's made it all work. According to His Word, that day will come and you and I will be before Him giving an account of our lives that He so richly gave us.

[quote]If I met God, I would hope that entity would recognize that I'd done my best to love, and to live with honesty, integrity and responsibility[/quote]

If that were true, then Jesus died for nothing and you'd be earning your way into heaven. That is not true, however, that we get into the kingdom of God by grace alone through the finished work of Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

[quote]I would ask to be permitted to cease to exist. If that were not permitted, I'd accept whatever happened.[/quote]

Why would ask such a thing? What is wrong with being in paradise for all eternity?

@GodSpeed63 That is one of the things that irks me the most.

I accept total responsibility for my mistakes, and would [i]never[/i] wish for someone else to suffer on my account. Such an idea to me is repugnant and immoral in the extreme.

I have no desire whatsoever to live for eternity in paradise.
Never have, never will.
The non-existence of death is exactly right for me when the time comes.

@hartfire [quote]That is one of the things that irks me the most. I accept total responsibility for my mistakes, and would never wish for someone else to suffer on my account. Such an idea to me is repugnant and immoral in the extreme. I have no desire whatsoever to live for eternity in paradise. Never have, never will. The non-existence of death is exactly right for me when the time comes.[/quote]

I understand. I was thinking that myself years ago before I became born again. What you don't understand is that when your body dies, your soul still lives on because it is eternal and cannot die.

@GodSpeed63 I accept that you sincerely believe in the eternity of the soul.
I do not believe that anything like a soul can exist.
Our consciousness is created by the energy generated by our bodies in a process that is biochemical, automatic and instinctual. The moment the body ceases to supply the energy for consciousness, death comes. There is nothing more; no experience of anything. And I am completely happy with that reality.

If your belief comforts you and serves you well, then that is a fine thing - but it is not and never could be something I could believe.

@hartfire [quote]Our consciousness is created by the energy generated by our bodies in a process that is biochemical, automatic and instinctual. The moment the body ceases to supply the energy for consciousness, death comes. There is nothing more; no experience of anything. And I am completely happy with that reality.[/quote]

Where do you think that energy comes from?

@GodSpeed63 Our bodies can not exist without outside information. You do need a science class or two. Too Funny. The chemicals simply don't form themselves into the needed complex form by themselves. Then there is that small matter of LIFE. The chemical difference between a live cell and a dead cell is information/energy. The chemicals can be identical but one is alive and the other is dead.

@hippyjoe1955 you need to get another cliché. Everytime I see you say "too funny" it's reminiscent of an atheist realizing he's losing the argument and doubles down on the smugness. That's why I can't shake the idea that you're an atheist false flag

@ImperialAerosolKidFromEP You can believe what ever you want. The fact is that life apart from a Creator can not exist. Jesus said "I AM the LIFE" Ever wonder what that means? Apart from Jesus there is no life anywhere. It simply can not exist. Life is a function of information/consciousness. Who is the Consciousness of God? Jesus.

@hippyjoe1955 I agree, so I wish you wouldn't

@ImperialAerosolKidFromEP I don't care what you wish. I wish you would mind your own business and stop trying to tell me how to do mine. I assume you feel the same way about my wishes.

@hippyjoe1955 well, if you did get all up in my face, at least it would distract you from mouthing off at other atheists (which distracts everyone from how badly [i]they[/i] behave)

@ImperialAerosolKidFromEP Yawn..... Did you say something? It must have been really boring because I couldn't be bothered to pay attention to it. Have a nice flame out.