You have robbed me says the Lord! How have we robbed you? [Spirituality & Religion]

Yes we all do🙂@NativeOregonian

@Carazaa Care to explain how we owe a non existent being, hmmmm?

@NativeOregonian You can deny He exists but He created the world, and He has inspired the Bible to be written. Jesus took the worlds sins on his own shoulders and he paid your ticket to heaven! I hope you repent, and follow Him!

@Carazaa Show us solid, irrefutable, tangible evidence that such a person actually existed. The Romans recorded everything concerning all events in every single one of their provinces, not one word is attributed to "jesus".

@NativeOregonian 🌷500 eye witnesses watched Jesus die for the world, buried, and raised from the dead, and go up to heaven and were willing to die to witness what they saw! Today there are more and more born again believers! I am one who have been changed by Gods amazing Grace! And I love God and all people and pray for those who persecute me! If you don't want to believe, repent, and follow Jesus then don't. But ask God for wisdom please! He will give you wisdom!

@Carazaa So they say in a book of myths. Not one single scroll records day turning to night, people rising from their graves and walking among the living, or even an earthquake. Plus, if 16 Centurians had abandoned their post in front of the cave, their own crucifictions would have been written down and their offences of letting zealots steal their leader's body included.

@NativeOregonian why do you think anyone abandoned a post?

@Carazaa Matthew 28: e

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Matthew 28
KJV

1In the end of the sabbath, as it began to dawn toward the first day of the week, came Mary Magdalene and the other Mary to see the sepulchre.
2And, behold, there was a great earthquake: for the angel of the Lord descended from heaven, and came and rolled back the stone from the door, and sat upon it.
3His countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snow:
4And for fear of him the keepers did shake, and became as dead men.
5And the angel answered and said unto the women, Fear not ye: for I know that ye seek Jesus, which was crucified.
6He is not here: for he is risen, as he said. Come, see the place where the Lord lay.
7And go quickly, and tell his disciples that he is risen from the dead; and, behold, he goeth before you into Galilee; there shall ye see him: lo, I have told you.
8And they departed quickly from the sepulchre with fear and great joy; and did run to bring his disciples word.
9And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him.
10Then said Jesus unto them, Be not afraid: go tell my brethren that they go into Galilee, and there shall they see me.
11Now when they were going, behold, some of the watch came into the city, and shewed unto the chief priests all the things that were done.
12And when they were assembled with the elders, and had taken counsel, they gave large money unto the soldiers,
13Saying, Say ye, His disciples came by night, and stole him away while we slept.
14And if this come to the governor's ears, we will persuade him, and secure you.
15So they took the money, and did as they were taught: and this saying is commonly reported among the Jews until this day.

Yet THIS is NOT recorded by the Romans in ANY of their own writings, hmmm, suspicious.

There is a non Christian account of the darkness that fell after Jesus died on the cross, someone trying to explain it away.
@NativeOregonian

@TwiddlerofThumbs Source?

@NativeOregonian https://carm.org/there-non-biblical-evidence-day-darkness-christs-death

@TwiddlerofThumbs Sorry for the late reply, just woke up a half hour ago and seen your reply, fall asleep after my last one to you, it's about 10:30am where I currently live. Here are a couple of bits of info for you to peruse.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DebateAChristian/comments/44ugf0/the_resurrection_an_elaborate_hoax/czt09bi/

extus Julius Africanus (c. 160 – c. 240) was a Christian traveller and historian of the late 2nd and early 3rd century AD.

Err... ok

This stuff reads more like Gospel than history my friend. I am unable to find the Thallus third book of his History nor Phlegon records.

Without the actual transcripts I find this as reliable as Paul saying there were 500 people who witnessed Christ.

Phlegon doesn't seem contemporary at least.

https://infidels.org/library/modern/jeff_lowder/jury/chap5.html

In He Walked Among Us, McDowell and Wilson argue that Africanus's reference to Thallus provides evidence for the historicity of Jesus because Thallus

does not seek to explain away the existence and crucifixion as a definite historical event, though one which needed a naturalistic explanation for the darkness which covered the earth at the time of the event.[124]

I agree that there is no evidence Thallus ever questioned the historicity of Jesus. Moreover, it is certainly possible that Thallus referred to the crucifixion and even that he did so as an independent witness. But it also possible that Thallus did not mention Jesus' crucifixion or even Jesus himself. Thallus may have written before the crucifixion; Africanus may have simply assumed that the darkness mentioned by Thallus was the darkness associated with Jesus' crucifixion. Since we don't possess any extant copies of the Thallus material, there is simply no way to know if Thallus was a witness to Jesus. Likewise, we don't know what Thallus's sources were. Again, it is certainly possible that Thallus had an independent source for his information, but it is equally possible that Thallus was dependent on Christian sources. Thus, even if Thallus were a witness to the historicity of Jesus, there is no reason to believe he was an independent witness. Therefore, given the present data (or the lack of it, depending on your perspective) Thallus cannot be used to provide independent confirmation of the historicity of Jesus.

Moreover, the darkness itself is doubtful. As Carrier notes:

Such a story has obvious mythic overtones and can easily be doubted. That a solar eclipse should mark the death of a king was common lore among Greeks and other Mediterranean peoples (Herodotus 7.37, Plutarch Pelopidas 31.3 and Aemilius Paulus 17.7-11, Dio Cassius 55.29.3, John Lydus De Ostentis 70.a), and that such events corresponded with earthquakes was also a scientific superstition (Aristotle Meteorology 367.b.2, Pliny Natural History 2.195, Virgil Georgics 2.47.478-80). It was also typical to assimilate eclipses to major historic events, even when they did not originally correspond, or to invent eclipses for this purpose (Préaux claims to have counted 200 examples in extant literature; Boeuffle and Newton have also remarked on this tendency). The gospel stories also make a solar eclipse impossible: the crucifixion passover happened during a full moon, the darkness supposedly lasted three hours, and covered the whole earth. Such an impossible event would not fail to be recorded in the works of Seneca, Pliny, Josephus or other historians, yet it is not mentioned anywhere else outside of Christian rhetoric, so we can entirely dismiss the idea of this being a real event.[125]

Thus McDowell and Wilson, in an attempt to provide independent confirmation of Jesus, are appealing to an alleged astronomical event which itself needs independent confirmation but lacks it![126] But that entails that Africanus's reference to Thallus does not provide independent confirmation of Jesus.

Finally, the passage does not even pass the bibliographical test, one of McDowell's three standards for assessing historical documents. McDowell defines his bibliographical test as follows:

The bibliographical test is an examination of the textual transmission by which documents reach us. In other words, since we do not have the original documents, how reliable are the copies we have in regard to the number of manuscripts (MSS) and the time interval between the original and extant copy?[127]

With McDowell's definition in mind, does Thallus' Histories pass the bibliographical test? Absolutely not! The original manuscripts of Thallus' Histories are not extant and we do not possess any copies of the original. Carrier explains:

The only manuscript copies we have of this Thallus quotation date over 1600 years after the crucifixion itself. And this is not even a tradition of Thallus, but of George Syncellus, who wrote it down from his source over 800 years after Thallus would have written the original according to McDowell, and yet not even that: for Syncellus is copying not from Thallus, but from a late copy of Africanus, who was in turn writing well over 100 years after McDowell proposes that Thallus wrote. There could not be a tradition less reliable or more prone to disastrous errors and corruptions than this![128]

Thus it is utterly impossible to determine the transmission reliability of the passage. The passage fails miserably one of the same tests for historical reliability employed by McDowell to establish the historical reliability of the Bible. The Africanus passage therefore deserves to be discarded.[129]

And He saves us so we walk with God! Families change which is proof that God lives! He did that for me@NativeOregonian

@Carazaa And I have seen numerous families go extremely batshit crazy with religion after they become "saved", too many to count. Once again, where is your solid, irrefutable, tangible evidence that any such deity exists.

@NativeOregonian alright... not to sound like I'm disregarding all your hard work. You do your leg work! ..or eye work... maybe. I only wanted to share with you the tiny bit I read. I by no means feel any need to convince you of anything.

@NativeOregonian he answers my prayers!

@NativeOregonian the Roman government tried to kill him but he rose from the dead and they wanted Him to go away! Josephus a non Christian did write about him and so did many!