This atheist, and scientist explains why he came to the realization why there has to be a loving God! [Spirituality & Religion]

@Northwest It seems a strange argument to make in regards to social animals.

@QuixoticSoul He's going with a very limited proposition, which states that if you can prove any aspect of evolution to be wrong, then the entire theory collapses. Strange coming from a scientist.

So, he proposes that self-preservation, is key to evolution, and if humans, or Jesus, exhibit a behavior that goes against self-preservation, then the theory of evolution is false.

@NorthwestHe is not against the theory of evolution but he says that the moral law is different than the law of evolution and self preservation.

@Carazaa Yet, he is making a clear argument, that evolution, by itself, fails to explain morality, and only religion does. That is not science, and if religion = morality, then explain the Inquisition, or the Tower of London, or Saudi Arabia, or the Taliban.

@Northwest That is not what the moral law is. It goes against self preservation. Jesus died for us! That is moral.

@Carazaa You're not addressing my comment. Evolution, he claims, goes against self-preservation, though this is not true. Jesus died, because he defied the Romans and offended the Jewish religious establishment. Some of his disciples, created Christianity.

@Northwest [quote]self-preservation, is key to evolution[/quote]

Is that what this guy claims? (apologies for surfing on your efforts, but I’m not going to watch half an hour of sophistry).

If that’s what he is saying, then he’s immediately wrong.

@newjaninev2 In a nut shell, this is what he's suggesting. I did watch the video, while putting away my laundry this morning :-)

He was suggesting that if evolution is about favoring the survival/evolution of the species, then selflessness as a moral issue, serves no evolutionary purpose. He was further hinting that this is where evolutionary theorists' fail.

He was speaking to a church audience, and his speech was really devoid of science.

@Northwest [quote]his speech was really devoid of science[/quote]

and devoid of any knowledge of evolution, apparently. :-)

Evolution has nothing to do with favouring a species.

Evolution is everything to do with whether or not an [i]individual[/i] replicates her genes.

The concept of species is a human concept... one that we can use to assess the effectiveness and effect of collective crossing of the genes of all the [i]individuals[/i] within that species.

What at first glance we deem to be altruistic becomes, when we assess the preservation of individual genes, far from altruism. A flock of sparrows is feeding and a cat approaches. One sparrow will chirp a warning, even if that momentary action slows its own escape... altruism. No, it’s offering the predator 50 moving targets within which its own escape is concealed. In the confusion it too [i]might[/i] become the selected target... but the odds of survival are sharply increased. Survival of its own set of genes.

Any of us would unhesitatingly sacrifice our own life for our children... and that propensity carries across to our close relatives, who carry a larger number of our genes that more distant members of our species, and failure to do so becomes more ‘morally’ acceptable as that distance increases. Children continue to starve in many countries, and we pay lip service to the horror of that... while shovelling McDonalds junk food into our children’s mouths.

@newjaninev2 It's always about Jesus dying on the cross, for our sins. I walked, more than once, the steps of the Via Dolorosa. From a historical perspective, the place is impressive, but it's still very clear to me, why Jesus died on that cross. He was a visionary, who preached tolerance and evolutionary change, when the more militant Jewish factions, were expecting someone who will free them from the Romans, so they tossed him under the bus.

He did die for the cause, but that has nothing to do with our sins. Even those who choose to believe, should acknowledge the "historical" probabilities.

And, of course, this has no bearing on what I believe to be the most logical explanation to our existence: evolution.

@Northwest Yes, the man departed, and the locals made myths and stories with which to bolster their own interests and ambitions. Unfortunately, it got a little out of hand! :-)

@Northwest No Christianity was established before Jesus came. Jesus is God, and his dying and being our savior was prophesized in the old testament many thousand years before. The Bible is prophetic so we know the future if we study the Bible. That's how we know its true. Everything comes true.

@Carazaa
[quote]No Christianity was established before Jesus came. [/quote]

Weird how Christianity, came before Christ. I did not think it worked that way. Actually, it does not work that way.

[quote]Jesus is God, and his dying and being our savior was prophesized in the old testament many thousand years before. [/quote]

where?

[quote]The Bible is prophetic so we know the future if we study the Bible. That's how we know its true. Everything comes true.[/quote]

where?

@Northwest Go to my post about fulfilled prophesies. There are about 30,000 of them in the Bible I believe. And we are nearing the end now so we better get with the program. All of the old testament is about Jesus. The Passover lamb, and the blood to save them, is a prelude to THE sacrificed lamb Jesus, and his blood to save the world. All of it is about Jesus. And in John 1 it says that Jesus IS the Creator of Everything!

@Carazaa One prophecy every 6 words? Wow!

@Carazaa Oy vey!

@Carazaa There is a more mundane explanation for the fact that the story of Jesus appears to fulfill Jewish prophesies. The writers of the Gospels were trying to persuade their Jewish brothers that Jesus was the Messiah so they made up stories of him doing stuff that the older books prophesied. It's far more likely that the Gospel writers were writing fiction about a man who either never existed or has had his history embellished in the retelling than a living God lived among us.

@VSonMe

You have got to be be kidding. No the godly, loving apostles died for nothing, no that's ridiculous. About 3000 saw many miracles raising people from the dead, and 500 saw him ascend to heaven. And the apostles all died torturous deaths and stoning's testifying. No, The Gospel writers Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James, Peter, and Paul were terribly persecuted and died testifying.

First of all Jesus did not fulfill The Jews prophesy, but the Bible, Gods word fulfilled it. The Jews missed the meaning, and still do.

For one who has studied the Bible for 50 years, I don't think that the Jews had any idea that the Passover symbolized The sacrificed lamb, or that Isaiah was talking about Jesus. The old testament was written by God inspired men who had no idea what the meaning was that God told them, I believe. In fact the book of Daniel explains that men will not have total wisdom of some meanings until the end of days when knowledge will be increased.

Now we are starting to put the puzzle pieces together that the church has missed for centuries. Hours of hours of studying every day for 50 years and I am still finding truth in the Bible. I think God is talking about our bodies when he says the third temple will be built in the last days, because God says "We are the Temple of the Holy spirit" And Jesus says that in the last days the 3rd temple will be built but he also says when the last person is saved then He will return . Everyone is waiting for Jerusalem to build a temple but I think he meant that when the last person is saved, then the body (the Holy Temple) will be complete)

You are talking like a foolish person

@Carazaa

[quote]About 3000 saw many miracles raising people from the dead, and 500 saw him ascend to heaven.[/quote]

This is not likely. The gospels were written at least 3 generations after the purported life of Jesus. The writers were not eye witnesses - they were embellishing oral stories. If there was an original Jesus, he probably almost tripped over a drunk on the street and said "Are you alright, mate?" "Yeah, I'm ok." After a few retellings, this became "I swear the fucker was dead and then this bloke, Jesus, came over to him, whispered the word of god in his ear, and he came alive again."

[quote]You are talking like a foolish person[/quote]

My explanation requires no deities and nothing outside the normal realm of our everyday experience.


Yours requires a butt-hurt, self-centered deity and a bunch of miracles.


It's more likely that the foolish person is the one whose first thought is that the most highly improbable explanation is somehow more likely to be true - a sort of reverse Occam's Razor.