Is Islam worth trying to reform? [Spirituality & Religion]
Poll - Total Votes: 27
Yes, Islam is worth trying to reform.
No, Islam is unfixable.
Islam does not need reforming.
You can only vote on one answer.
This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
NickiHijab · F
NickiHijab · F
@BlueVeins Would you appreciate someone trying to ‘persuade’ you to stop living in a way that brought no harm to you or others? Why do you think you’re in a position to do this? What makes you think your way is the right way? Is it really that hard to grasp the reality of their being people who believe in something different to you, without you assuming they need your ‘persuasion’?
BlueVeins · 22-25
@NickiHijab If someone can make a well-reasoned argument that I should change a behavior -- even one that does not directly harm others -- I'd appreciate it. In fact, I've taken people's advice several times, as I'm sure you have. I used to drink pop all the time until I read some of the arguments against it, which relate to the health effects. I went to the college I'm currently at because I was shown tons of information about the college's credentials and perks.
One of the fundamental aspects of persuasion is that people don't always know when they need it. For in order to know that you need persuasion, you'd need to know that your opinion is wrong to begin with, which is almost a contradiction. And thus, even the people who need persuasion most would not recognize that need. That's why there are still flat-Earthers and anti-vaxxers in a world teeming with people who'd be all too happy to convince them that their views are false.
One of the fundamental aspects of persuasion is that people don't always know when they need it. For in order to know that you need persuasion, you'd need to know that your opinion is wrong to begin with, which is almost a contradiction. And thus, even the people who need persuasion most would not recognize that need. That's why there are still flat-Earthers and anti-vaxxers in a world teeming with people who'd be all too happy to convince them that their views are false.
NickiHijab · F
@BlueVeins Changing a behaviour and changing a religion couldn’t be further apart in comparison but since you’re talking behaviour, let me remind you that you’re talking on a scale of billions of people here. Which demographic are you suggesting? The biggest muslim population in the world perhaps? Indonesia? Maybe Bosnia or are white muslims not worth reforming?
I know you didn’t say or insinuate anything I just argued about white muslims but my point here is that the term ‘muslim’ is too vast for there to be a reform of islam. What about different sects? School of thoughts? Interpretations? The extent to which one practices? Different cultures? Different upbringing and values? Does none of this come into play when considering behaviour?
The example of drinking pop doesn’t quite cut it either. Religion is a way of life. Changing something in your diet isn’t the equivalent to changing a belief system.
“In order to know that you need persuasion, you’d need to know that your opinion is wrong to begin with.” Wrong according to who? You right? The room to persuade shouldn’t be your job unless the second party agrees to an open discussion regarding their religion. Otherwise, it’s not persuading but rather forceful. You can’t push a conversation someone doesn’t initiate or want then claim to ‘persuade’ them of their wrong opinion. It doesn’t work like that.
I know you didn’t say or insinuate anything I just argued about white muslims but my point here is that the term ‘muslim’ is too vast for there to be a reform of islam. What about different sects? School of thoughts? Interpretations? The extent to which one practices? Different cultures? Different upbringing and values? Does none of this come into play when considering behaviour?
The example of drinking pop doesn’t quite cut it either. Religion is a way of life. Changing something in your diet isn’t the equivalent to changing a belief system.
“In order to know that you need persuasion, you’d need to know that your opinion is wrong to begin with.” Wrong according to who? You right? The room to persuade shouldn’t be your job unless the second party agrees to an open discussion regarding their religion. Otherwise, it’s not persuading but rather forceful. You can’t push a conversation someone doesn’t initiate or want then claim to ‘persuade’ them of their wrong opinion. It doesn’t work like that.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@NickiHijab Change in beliefs and change in behavior are closely intertwined, when not the same thing altogether. A person's actions are a result of the logical processes and thoughts going on in their heads, which are entirely shaped by a person's beliefs. Therefore, you cannot use persuasion to change someone's behavior [i]without[/i] changing their beliefs. One doesn't stop drinking pop simply because one is told to; one stops drinking pop because the way one percieves pop has changed. But if you want a more direct example -- which is entirely fair given the circumstances -- I'd like to point you towards the work of MLK. Martin Luther King was a man who used rhetoric (and charity, less relevantly) to change people's beliefs -- religious and otherwise -- to the general betterment of society, and most of those affected thanked him for it retroactively.
As for which Muslims to target, in general, targeting [i]any[/i] Muslims for persuasion should be pretty effective for moving Islam as a whole. A relatively small population of progressive Muslims in Spain could work wonders for the population in Saudi Arabia, simply because they speak the same language, so to speak. People in general are more receptive to alternate viewpoints that are close to their own.
As for which Muslims to target, in general, targeting [i]any[/i] Muslims for persuasion should be pretty effective for moving Islam as a whole. A relatively small population of progressive Muslims in Spain could work wonders for the population in Saudi Arabia, simply because they speak the same language, so to speak. People in general are more receptive to alternate viewpoints that are close to their own.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@NickiHijab [quote]“In order to know that you need persuasion, you’d need to know that your opinion is wrong to begin with.” Wrong according to who? You right? The room to persuade shouldn’t be your job unless the second party agrees to an open discussion regarding their religion. Otherwise, it’s not persuading but rather forceful. [/quote]
You're missing the point. The advantage of rhetoric is that at least in theory, ideas that are intellectually defensible spread and ideas that are indefensible decline. If I'm ultimately wrong about my opinion that gay people should not be executed -- which is a very strange thing to suggest, in itself -- then that is more likely to become apparent in the debate than vice versa, giving us a net increase in correct information. So either way, we all win.
[quote]You can’t push a conversation someone doesn’t initiate or want then claim to ‘persuade’ them of their wrong opinion. It doesn’t work like that.[/quote]
If someone doesn't want to engage, they don't have to. Short of tying someone to a chair and yelling arguments in someone's face, there's no way to force someone into a conversation. Nobody is trying to do that, and even if they were, it would still ultimately be considered persuasion because persuasion is, by definition, just convincing someone to believe/do something.
And this is the problem I keep having with the way you talk. You keep conflating words with force, but they're just not the same thing at all. Rhetoric cannot physically harm you; it cannot force you to do anything in any way on its own. It's why freedom of speech exists in every respectable nation on Earth.
You're missing the point. The advantage of rhetoric is that at least in theory, ideas that are intellectually defensible spread and ideas that are indefensible decline. If I'm ultimately wrong about my opinion that gay people should not be executed -- which is a very strange thing to suggest, in itself -- then that is more likely to become apparent in the debate than vice versa, giving us a net increase in correct information. So either way, we all win.
[quote]You can’t push a conversation someone doesn’t initiate or want then claim to ‘persuade’ them of their wrong opinion. It doesn’t work like that.[/quote]
If someone doesn't want to engage, they don't have to. Short of tying someone to a chair and yelling arguments in someone's face, there's no way to force someone into a conversation. Nobody is trying to do that, and even if they were, it would still ultimately be considered persuasion because persuasion is, by definition, just convincing someone to believe/do something.
And this is the problem I keep having with the way you talk. You keep conflating words with force, but they're just not the same thing at all. Rhetoric cannot physically harm you; it cannot force you to do anything in any way on its own. It's why freedom of speech exists in every respectable nation on Earth.
NickiHijab · F
@BlueVeins You’ve yet to answer the questions I posed which would give this conversation more direction since you haven’t claimed how this reform would be applied.
You also haven’t acknowledged the other components that inevitably play a role in behaviour which give us our differences. That can be seen by the undeniable fact that muslims have different identities, (contrary to popular beliefs.. we’re not robots)
If your aim here is to change someones behaviour [b]and[/b] their beliefs are you really persuading at this point or are you dictating? This sounds more like a recreation of your own image which you deem the only right way.
You’re gonna have to elaborate on how muslims in spain would impact muslims in Saudi. There’s already muslims outside Saudi that do not share their fundamentalist thinking or lifestyle yet that hasn’t done anything in terms of a reform. Although there [b]has[/b] been development but much of that is due to their government, just as it is with every other country. Wouldn’t every other muslim country mirror Saudi if it was islam? If by reforming islam you mean Saudi then that’s completely different. You should be more clear on what you mean by reform of islam since it covers many countries and individuals.
You also haven’t acknowledged the other components that inevitably play a role in behaviour which give us our differences. That can be seen by the undeniable fact that muslims have different identities, (contrary to popular beliefs.. we’re not robots)
If your aim here is to change someones behaviour [b]and[/b] their beliefs are you really persuading at this point or are you dictating? This sounds more like a recreation of your own image which you deem the only right way.
You’re gonna have to elaborate on how muslims in spain would impact muslims in Saudi. There’s already muslims outside Saudi that do not share their fundamentalist thinking or lifestyle yet that hasn’t done anything in terms of a reform. Although there [b]has[/b] been development but much of that is due to their government, just as it is with every other country. Wouldn’t every other muslim country mirror Saudi if it was islam? If by reforming islam you mean Saudi then that’s completely different. You should be more clear on what you mean by reform of islam since it covers many countries and individuals.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@NickiHijab [quote] You’ve yet to answer the questions I posed which would give this conversation more direction since you haven’t claimed how this reform would be applied. [/quote]
What question, exactly? Either I lost your question in the length of your replies, or you lost my answer in the complexity of mine. I'm open to either, so just tell me what the question is so I can respond accordingly.
[quote]You also haven’t acknowledged the other components that inevitably play a role in behaviour which give us our differences.[/quote]
I didn't think I had to, since this is such a simple concept, but I'll bite. Basically every persuasion campaign ever is based on changing the average opinion, if you will, as opposed to addressing every person individually. Anti-smoking campaigns, for example, don't actually have to address the individual reasons why every single smoker starts doing it; they just need to have a general idea of what people like and don't like, and why the majority of people do it.
[quote]If your aim here is to change someones behaviour and their beliefs are you really persuading at this point or are you dictating?[/quote]
Was Martin Luther King a dictator for convincing people to stop hating black people and start treating them as humans? Is Bill Nye a dictator for convincing people to recognize the scientific validity of Climate Change and conving people to live more sustainable lifestyles? Are you a dictator for trying to convince me that persuading Muslims is futile, and to stop attempting it?
[quote]You’re gonna have to elaborate on how muslims in spain would impact muslims in Saudi. [/quote]
I already did. We convince some Muslims to accept progressive values and those Muslims convince other Muslims of the same thing -- this time more effectively. Muslims know the scriptures better than most non-Muslims, how to manipulate in their favor. And in having that knowledge and their religious status, they weild greater credibility in Islamic circles.
What question, exactly? Either I lost your question in the length of your replies, or you lost my answer in the complexity of mine. I'm open to either, so just tell me what the question is so I can respond accordingly.
[quote]You also haven’t acknowledged the other components that inevitably play a role in behaviour which give us our differences.[/quote]
I didn't think I had to, since this is such a simple concept, but I'll bite. Basically every persuasion campaign ever is based on changing the average opinion, if you will, as opposed to addressing every person individually. Anti-smoking campaigns, for example, don't actually have to address the individual reasons why every single smoker starts doing it; they just need to have a general idea of what people like and don't like, and why the majority of people do it.
[quote]If your aim here is to change someones behaviour and their beliefs are you really persuading at this point or are you dictating?[/quote]
Was Martin Luther King a dictator for convincing people to stop hating black people and start treating them as humans? Is Bill Nye a dictator for convincing people to recognize the scientific validity of Climate Change and conving people to live more sustainable lifestyles? Are you a dictator for trying to convince me that persuading Muslims is futile, and to stop attempting it?
[quote]You’re gonna have to elaborate on how muslims in spain would impact muslims in Saudi. [/quote]
I already did. We convince some Muslims to accept progressive values and those Muslims convince other Muslims of the same thing -- this time more effectively. Muslims know the scriptures better than most non-Muslims, how to manipulate in their favor. And in having that knowledge and their religious status, they weild greater credibility in Islamic circles.
NickiHijab · F
@BlueVeins Questions worth addressing: [quote] Why do you think you’re in a position to do this? What makes you think your way is the right way?[/quote]
[quote] What about different sects? School of thoughts? Interpretations? [/quote]
This is particularly important to consider because this is what forms the belief systems. You’re treating every muslim as having the same beliefs which isn’t the case. When you say islam, what do you mean? Sunni’s? Shias? Wahabis? Ahmadis? The legal school of thoughts? Which one are you hoping to reform
Hanafi?
Maliki?
Shafi?
Hanbali?
Baring in mind that these 4 school of thoughts are just from one sect. Yes, people from the same sect have different ways of thinking yet your approach is rather one dimensional. If you take in account the sects, there’s more legal school of thoughts to consider too. It’s not as easy as saying, “let’s change one group of muslims and hope the rest go along”
Your examples are moving away from the conversation and just attempts to justify your use of the word persuasion.
You refer to islam as though it’s a disease that people need to be freed from. You should allow people to make these choices themselves.
Did martin luther king aim to wipe away someones identity while aiming for equality or did he fight for it? I don’t think your understanding of islam is enough for you to suggest a reform because you mentioned Saudi as an example which by the way is wahabism, meaning this thinking doesn’t even make up half of the muslim population in the world.
[quote] I already did. We convince some Muslims to accept progressive values and those Muslims convince other Muslims of the same thing -- this time more effectively. Muslims know the scriptures better than most non-Muslims, how to manipulate in their favor. And in having that knowledge and their religious status, they weild greater credibility in Islamic circles. [/quote]
Ah okay, so there’s already no progressive muslims in existence and so you wanna help them to fit the standards of what you consider progressive for them to spread it amongst other muslims? Does that even sound feasible to you? As a muslim myself, I know that this is nothing more than wishful thinking. I have differing views from other muslims yet they still stand by their views despite continuous conversations. The bottom line here is people know what they believe in because it comes from faith not from what’s trendy. True reform is when they consider their character and practice.
[quote] What about different sects? School of thoughts? Interpretations? [/quote]
This is particularly important to consider because this is what forms the belief systems. You’re treating every muslim as having the same beliefs which isn’t the case. When you say islam, what do you mean? Sunni’s? Shias? Wahabis? Ahmadis? The legal school of thoughts? Which one are you hoping to reform
Hanafi?
Maliki?
Shafi?
Hanbali?
Baring in mind that these 4 school of thoughts are just from one sect. Yes, people from the same sect have different ways of thinking yet your approach is rather one dimensional. If you take in account the sects, there’s more legal school of thoughts to consider too. It’s not as easy as saying, “let’s change one group of muslims and hope the rest go along”
Your examples are moving away from the conversation and just attempts to justify your use of the word persuasion.
You refer to islam as though it’s a disease that people need to be freed from. You should allow people to make these choices themselves.
Did martin luther king aim to wipe away someones identity while aiming for equality or did he fight for it? I don’t think your understanding of islam is enough for you to suggest a reform because you mentioned Saudi as an example which by the way is wahabism, meaning this thinking doesn’t even make up half of the muslim population in the world.
[quote] I already did. We convince some Muslims to accept progressive values and those Muslims convince other Muslims of the same thing -- this time more effectively. Muslims know the scriptures better than most non-Muslims, how to manipulate in their favor. And in having that knowledge and their religious status, they weild greater credibility in Islamic circles. [/quote]
Ah okay, so there’s already no progressive muslims in existence and so you wanna help them to fit the standards of what you consider progressive for them to spread it amongst other muslims? Does that even sound feasible to you? As a muslim myself, I know that this is nothing more than wishful thinking. I have differing views from other muslims yet they still stand by their views despite continuous conversations. The bottom line here is people know what they believe in because it comes from faith not from what’s trendy. True reform is when they consider their character and practice.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@NickiHijab [quote]When you say islam, what do you mean? Sunni’s? Shias? Wahabis? Ahmadis? The legal school of thoughts? Which one are you hoping to reform[/quote] Why are you acting like we have to only choose 1 or 2? This isn't complicated, bro; we just try to appeal to as many people as possible, regardless of the name. It worked in the USA with the civil rights movement, despite the many different denominations of Christians who live here. If you have a specific objection, now is the time to raise it.
[quote]Your examples are moving away from the conversation and just attempts to justify your use of the word persuasion.[/quote] You're the one who attacked my use of the word persuasion. If you don't want semantic arguments, don't dish out semantic arguments.
[quote]You refer to islam as though it’s a disease that people need to be freed from.[/quote] I did not. I'm telling you that prejudice is a disease that's largely manifested itself in Islam, and that Islam and many Muslims need to be cured of it.
[quote]Did martin luther king aim to wipe away someones identity while aiming for equality or did he fight for it?[/quote] Are you implying that prejudice is a legitimate part of people's identity that should not be fought?
[quote]Ah okay, so there’s already no progressive muslims in existence[/quote] huge strawman argument
[quote]so you wanna help them to fit the standards of what you consider progressive for them to spread it amongst other muslims? Does that even sound feasible to you?[/quote] It's already happening, dude. Look at the Muslim populations in Europe and the US; they're a lot more progressive than the Wahhabists as it is.
[quote]As a muslim myself, I know that this is nothing more than wishful thinking. I have differing views from other muslims yet they still stand by their views despite continuous conversations. The bottom line here is people know what they believe in because it comes from faith not from what’s trendy. True reform is when they consider their character and practice.[/quote]
You seem to have this weird ideological thing where you have so little hope for your own religion that you believe they cannot be convinced, yet recognize that moderate Muslims exist and believe that Muslims are generally good. It's a contradiction that almost leads me to believe that you're not engaging in good faith.
[quote]Your examples are moving away from the conversation and just attempts to justify your use of the word persuasion.[/quote] You're the one who attacked my use of the word persuasion. If you don't want semantic arguments, don't dish out semantic arguments.
[quote]You refer to islam as though it’s a disease that people need to be freed from.[/quote] I did not. I'm telling you that prejudice is a disease that's largely manifested itself in Islam, and that Islam and many Muslims need to be cured of it.
[quote]Did martin luther king aim to wipe away someones identity while aiming for equality or did he fight for it?[/quote] Are you implying that prejudice is a legitimate part of people's identity that should not be fought?
[quote]Ah okay, so there’s already no progressive muslims in existence[/quote] huge strawman argument
[quote]so you wanna help them to fit the standards of what you consider progressive for them to spread it amongst other muslims? Does that even sound feasible to you?[/quote] It's already happening, dude. Look at the Muslim populations in Europe and the US; they're a lot more progressive than the Wahhabists as it is.
[quote]As a muslim myself, I know that this is nothing more than wishful thinking. I have differing views from other muslims yet they still stand by their views despite continuous conversations. The bottom line here is people know what they believe in because it comes from faith not from what’s trendy. True reform is when they consider their character and practice.[/quote]
You seem to have this weird ideological thing where you have so little hope for your own religion that you believe they cannot be convinced, yet recognize that moderate Muslims exist and believe that Muslims are generally good. It's a contradiction that almost leads me to believe that you're not engaging in good faith.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@NickiHijab Just for the record, I disagree with religion but I'm tolrent towards it because its personal choice.
NickiHijab · F
@Burnley123 and I respect that. You don’t have to like or agree with it. I just don’t appreciate people acting as superiors in a situation where people don’t need nor request ‘help’
Exactly, all I ask for is tolerance. I don’t agree with many things that I still tolerate. Why? Because it’s respect of another human and their right to personal autonomy.
Exactly, all I ask for is tolerance. I don’t agree with many things that I still tolerate. Why? Because it’s respect of another human and their right to personal autonomy.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
BlueVeins · 22-25
@NickiHijab I agree that intolerance to billions of people is prejudicial, but that's neither here nor there.