Could Nothing Create A Book? [Spirituality & Religion]
[youtube=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-lSUjJv6DGc]
61-69, M
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Just the opposite. We know the illustration books you are referring to, are intellectually designed [b]because[/b] they are complicated. Same with the intricacy of DNA. DNA wouldn’t even exist without intelligent design. It is far too complicated. It didn’t just make itself. Darwin attempted to explain the origin of new living forms starting from simpler pre-existing forms of life, but his theory of evolution by natural selection did not even attempt to explain the origin of life — the simplest living cell — in the first place. Yet there is now compelling evidence of intelligent design in the inner recesses of even the simplest living one-celled organisms. Moreover, there is a key feature of living cells — one that makes the intelligent design of life detectable — that Darwin didn’t know about and that contemporary evolutionary theorists have not explained away.
@BlueVeins
@BlueVeins
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QuixoticSoul · 41-45, M
@LadyGrace Huh.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@LadyGrace [quote]DNA wouldn’t even exist without intelligent design. It is far too complicated.[/quote]
That's a non sequitur. Lots of complicated things happen to be designed, but complexity does not imply central planning.
[quote]Darwin attempted to explain the origin of new living forms starting from simpler pre-existing forms of life, but his theory of evolution by natural selection did not even attempt to explain the origin of life — the simplest living cell — in the first place.[/quote]
That's because the theory of evolution didn't pretain to the origin of life. The purpose of his theory was to explain the origin of biological diversity, hence the title, [i]The Origin of Species.[/i] And like many scientists, he finished his work where his knowledge ended and the unknown began, in the hopes that one day, more scientists would pick up where he left off. That ended up happening, and the result is a theory known as abiogenesis, which, based on all available evidence, is a promising candidate for the origin of life.
Besides, if you don't think evolution exists, then how can you explain the fact that older rocks contain fossils of simpler organisms?
That's a non sequitur. Lots of complicated things happen to be designed, but complexity does not imply central planning.
[quote]Darwin attempted to explain the origin of new living forms starting from simpler pre-existing forms of life, but his theory of evolution by natural selection did not even attempt to explain the origin of life — the simplest living cell — in the first place.[/quote]
That's because the theory of evolution didn't pretain to the origin of life. The purpose of his theory was to explain the origin of biological diversity, hence the title, [i]The Origin of Species.[/i] And like many scientists, he finished his work where his knowledge ended and the unknown began, in the hopes that one day, more scientists would pick up where he left off. That ended up happening, and the result is a theory known as abiogenesis, which, based on all available evidence, is a promising candidate for the origin of life.
Besides, if you don't think evolution exists, then how can you explain the fact that older rocks contain fossils of simpler organisms?
I see you have it all figured out, but there’s so many things you still don’t know, that only God knows. I think He’s quite smarter than mere man, so when He says He created everything, I believe that means everything, regardless of what others may think. Our intelligence can never reach His. @BlueVeins
Only for those who don’t want to believe anyway. @QuixoticSoul
Oh please. Bottom line...you’re not smarter than God and you don’t get to set the standards for Him.
Further, There is simply too much information in the cell to be explained by chance alone. And attempts to explain the origin of information as the consequence of pre-biotic natural selection acting on random changes inevitably presuppose precisely what needs explaining, namely, reams of pre-existing genetic information. The information in DNA also defies explanation by reference to the laws of chemistry. Saying otherwise is like saying a newspaper headline might arise from the chemical attraction between ink and paper. Clearly something more is at work.
@BlueVeins
Further, There is simply too much information in the cell to be explained by chance alone. And attempts to explain the origin of information as the consequence of pre-biotic natural selection acting on random changes inevitably presuppose precisely what needs explaining, namely, reams of pre-existing genetic information. The information in DNA also defies explanation by reference to the laws of chemistry. Saying otherwise is like saying a newspaper headline might arise from the chemical attraction between ink and paper. Clearly something more is at work.
@BlueVeins
BlueVeins · 22-25
@LadyGrace [quote]Oh please. Bottom line...you’re not smarter than God and you don’t get to set the standards for Him. [/quote]
Are you allergic to evidence or something? Because if you could seriously cite a single piece of good evidence that that god even exists, I would be beyond impressed.
[quote]Further, There is simply too much information in the cell to be explained by chance alone.[/quote]
Which is why biologists do not believe, and have never believed, that evolution operates on chance alone. Evolutionary changes are guided by environmental constraints and threats, as well as internal risk factors. The changes [i]themselves[/i] are random, but they operate in non-random ways to cause predictable outcomes. If this didn't happen, by the way, you wouldn't have to get a flu shot every year, because the same vaccine would remain effective forever and ever.
[quote]The information in DNA also defies explanation by reference to the laws of chemistry.[/quote]
DNA is a chemical, in itself; it is essentially defined by the laws of chemistry. So, do you have any particular laws in mind, or are you just saying that?
Also, I noticed you haven't responded to the following:
[quote]Besides, if you don't think evolution exists, then how can you explain the fact that older rocks contain fossils of simpler organisms?[/quote]
Are you allergic to evidence or something? Because if you could seriously cite a single piece of good evidence that that god even exists, I would be beyond impressed.
[quote]Further, There is simply too much information in the cell to be explained by chance alone.[/quote]
Which is why biologists do not believe, and have never believed, that evolution operates on chance alone. Evolutionary changes are guided by environmental constraints and threats, as well as internal risk factors. The changes [i]themselves[/i] are random, but they operate in non-random ways to cause predictable outcomes. If this didn't happen, by the way, you wouldn't have to get a flu shot every year, because the same vaccine would remain effective forever and ever.
[quote]The information in DNA also defies explanation by reference to the laws of chemistry.[/quote]
DNA is a chemical, in itself; it is essentially defined by the laws of chemistry. So, do you have any particular laws in mind, or are you just saying that?
Also, I noticed you haven't responded to the following:
[quote]Besides, if you don't think evolution exists, then how can you explain the fact that older rocks contain fossils of simpler organisms?[/quote]
@BlueVeins When we study philosophy, we learn of “analytically false” statements, which means they are false by definition. The possibility of reality being self-created, is one of those types of statements for the simple reason that something cannot be prior to itself. If you created yourself, then you must have existed prior to you creating yourself, but that simply cannot be. In evolution this is sometimes referred to as “spontaneous generation” —something coming from nothing—a position that few, if any, reasonable people hold to anymore, simply because you cannot get something from nothing. Even the atheist David Hume said, “I never asserted so absurd a proposition as that anything might arise without a cause.” Since something cannot come from nothing, the alternative of reality being self-created is ruled out.
@BlueVeins Explain how an impersonal, purposeless, meaningless, and amoral universe accidentally created beings (us) who are full of personality, with purpose, meaning, and morals. Such a thing, from a causation standpoint, completely refutes the idea of a natural universe birthing everything that exists. So in the end, the concept of an eternal universe is eliminated.
No. I’m not allergic to evidence. I have all the evidence I need. I don’t have to guess if there is a God. I’ve experienced Him, and my experience doesn’t need anyone’s approval to be true. No one can undermine my personal experience just because they have not experienced God. The proof being the Holy Spirit who lives in each believer, upon accepting Jesus as their personal Savior. The Holy Spirit is what transforms lives, like He did me and thousands of others. His job is also to teach and guide the believer, and there’s no way one can experience that until they have been born-again. Nor will they ever understand it until they are born-again. I haven’t dedicated 45 years of my life to someone I’m not sure exists. I know He exists. He lives in my heart and life.
The determining factor of one's authentic faith relationship with God is not one's denomination, religious practice or performance in Christian disciplines, but rather the presence of the indwelling Spirit of Christ, upon confession of faith. As it is written, “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom.8:9) Jesus' invitation always stands open for anyone to receive forgiveness, be welcomed into his family, and live eternally in heaven.
@BlueVeins
The determining factor of one's authentic faith relationship with God is not one's denomination, religious practice or performance in Christian disciplines, but rather the presence of the indwelling Spirit of Christ, upon confession of faith. As it is written, “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom.8:9) Jesus' invitation always stands open for anyone to receive forgiveness, be welcomed into his family, and live eternally in heaven.
@BlueVeins
GodSpeed63 · 61-69, M
@BlueVeins [quote]Are you allergic to evidence or something? Because if you could seriously cite a single piece of good evidence that that god even exists, I would be beyond impressed.[/quote]
You're made in His image are you not? He has made the heavens and the earth. The heavens declare His glory and the earth, the work of His hands.
[quote]Evolutionary changes are guided by environmental constraints and threats, as well as internal risk factors. The changes themselves are random, but they operate in non-random ways to cause predictable outcomes.[/quote]
If that were the case, whom do you think sets all of it in motion?
[quote]DNA is a chemical, in itself; it is essentially defined by the laws of chemistry. So, do you have any particular laws in mind, or are you just saying that?[/quote]
She's not just saying it. It's the truth.
You're made in His image are you not? He has made the heavens and the earth. The heavens declare His glory and the earth, the work of His hands.
[quote]Evolutionary changes are guided by environmental constraints and threats, as well as internal risk factors. The changes themselves are random, but they operate in non-random ways to cause predictable outcomes.[/quote]
If that were the case, whom do you think sets all of it in motion?
[quote]DNA is a chemical, in itself; it is essentially defined by the laws of chemistry. So, do you have any particular laws in mind, or are you just saying that?[/quote]
She's not just saying it. It's the truth.
When you talk about absolute “proof”, you are talking about things in the “spiritual realm”....things we cannot possibly see, until we cross OVER into the spiritual world. However....that does not prevent us from knowing Jesus, by His Spirit uniting and having fellowship with ours, communicating through prayer.
Some may call it “God’s whispers,” while others say, “God’s still, small voice.” We are made in the image of God, and when we confess Jesus and follow Him as our Lord and Savior, His Spirit comes to live in us (John 14:17, 1 Corinthians 3:16). God’s Spirit speaks to us through our conscience, helping to make the right decision. When we’re tempted, that same Spirit warns and nudges us to do the right thing. God’s Spirit gives direction. Many ways He speaks to believers.
@BlueVeins
Some may call it “God’s whispers,” while others say, “God’s still, small voice.” We are made in the image of God, and when we confess Jesus and follow Him as our Lord and Savior, His Spirit comes to live in us (John 14:17, 1 Corinthians 3:16). God’s Spirit speaks to us through our conscience, helping to make the right decision. When we’re tempted, that same Spirit warns and nudges us to do the right thing. God’s Spirit gives direction. Many ways He speaks to believers.
@BlueVeins
BlueVeins · 22-25
@LadyGrace [quote]When you talk about absolute “proof”,[/quote]
I'm not talking about "absolute 'proof'"; I'm talking about literally any form of evidence. Something that can't easily be explained by say, our own brains acting to keep us from alienating ourselves from society. Most humans have an instinctual compulsion to help others and avoid killing, but there's zero evidence that that's supernatural in nature. That probably exists because humans fighting other humans is a massive evolutionary disadvantage. Oh, and some people are defective and don't have that, so that's a little harder to explain in a theistic worldview. Again, what you're considering to be evidence requires you to accept your conclusion as part of the premise, which is, by definition, circular reasoning.
[quote]The possibility of reality being self-created, is one of those types of statements for the simple reason that something cannot be prior to itself.[/quote]
You're right, but that's not relevant to this conversation. Nobody of interest ever claimed that reality is self-created, and the non-existence of a god is not contingent on this being possible.
[quote] In evolution this is sometimes referred to as “spontaneous generation”[/quote]
No, it's not. You're thinking of a pre-scientific hypothesis revolving around the idea that all life except humans constantly arose from inanimate objects, like maggots spawning from rotting meat. In reality, essentially all life forms come from other life forms. Abiogenesis is the theory that one microorganism, simpler than any contemporary specimen, came together from a sea of chemicals.
Seeing as all life as we know it is made of chemicals and energy, the idea that life came from existing chemicals is by no means related to something coming from nothing, and is well-founded from a scientific perspective.
I'm not talking about "absolute 'proof'"; I'm talking about literally any form of evidence. Something that can't easily be explained by say, our own brains acting to keep us from alienating ourselves from society. Most humans have an instinctual compulsion to help others and avoid killing, but there's zero evidence that that's supernatural in nature. That probably exists because humans fighting other humans is a massive evolutionary disadvantage. Oh, and some people are defective and don't have that, so that's a little harder to explain in a theistic worldview. Again, what you're considering to be evidence requires you to accept your conclusion as part of the premise, which is, by definition, circular reasoning.
[quote]The possibility of reality being self-created, is one of those types of statements for the simple reason that something cannot be prior to itself.[/quote]
You're right, but that's not relevant to this conversation. Nobody of interest ever claimed that reality is self-created, and the non-existence of a god is not contingent on this being possible.
[quote] In evolution this is sometimes referred to as “spontaneous generation”[/quote]
No, it's not. You're thinking of a pre-scientific hypothesis revolving around the idea that all life except humans constantly arose from inanimate objects, like maggots spawning from rotting meat. In reality, essentially all life forms come from other life forms. Abiogenesis is the theory that one microorganism, simpler than any contemporary specimen, came together from a sea of chemicals.
Seeing as all life as we know it is made of chemicals and energy, the idea that life came from existing chemicals is by no means related to something coming from nothing, and is well-founded from a scientific perspective.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@LadyGrace [quote] Explain how an impersonal, purposeless, meaningless, and amoral universe accidentally created beings (us) who are full of personality, with purpose, meaning, and morals. Such a thing, from a causation standpoint, completely refutes the idea of a natural universe birthing everything that exists. So in the end, the concept of an eternal universe is eliminated.
[/quote]
First of all, there's no accident about it; we aren't the result of an accident because there's no intention of the universe to begin with. Nature simply is. Second, morality and emotion are responses to the harshness and apathy of the universe we live in. We watch each other's backs because we know that there are a lot of forces larger than ourselves, and we hope that others will watch ours, too.
As for purpose, purpose is a way of coping with the challenges we face; it's hard to motivate ourselves to keep living without establishing some kind of purpose, and that comes in many forms.
[/quote]
First of all, there's no accident about it; we aren't the result of an accident because there's no intention of the universe to begin with. Nature simply is. Second, morality and emotion are responses to the harshness and apathy of the universe we live in. We watch each other's backs because we know that there are a lot of forces larger than ourselves, and we hope that others will watch ours, too.
As for purpose, purpose is a way of coping with the challenges we face; it's hard to motivate ourselves to keep living without establishing some kind of purpose, and that comes in many forms.
BlueVeins · 22-25
@GodSpeed63 [quote]You're made in His image are you not? He has made the heavens and the earth. The heavens declare His glory and the earth, the work of His hands[/quote]
What's the evidence of that?
[quote]If that were the case, whom do you think sets all of it in motion?[/quote]
That's a loaded question; I don't particularly think natural processes require sentient intervention. Why do you seem to think that they do?
[quote]She's not just saying it. It's the truth.[/quote]
How do [i]you[/i] know that? Do you know what law(s) she's referring to in particular? If so, then why not tell me? And if not, why pretend?
What's the evidence of that?
[quote]If that were the case, whom do you think sets all of it in motion?[/quote]
That's a loaded question; I don't particularly think natural processes require sentient intervention. Why do you seem to think that they do?
[quote]She's not just saying it. It's the truth.[/quote]
How do [i]you[/i] know that? Do you know what law(s) she's referring to in particular? If so, then why not tell me? And if not, why pretend?
This conversation is circular, therefore, I’ve just got one last thing to add. When push comes to shove, and times get super hard according to prophecy, as in the Great Tribulation period, we’ll see who these so-called super intelligent scientists and theorists call on to save them....science or God. Those who mock God now, will be begging God to save them.
Lack of evidence isn't evidence of nonexistence, although God left us plenty of evidence. People just don't want to see it. Let’s see you produce conclusive and undeniable evidence for the non-existence of God. You cannot accomplish this, and therefore, all you can do is hope that you are correct. If you aren't, eternity is a very long time to be wrong.
@BlueVeins
Lack of evidence isn't evidence of nonexistence, although God left us plenty of evidence. People just don't want to see it. Let’s see you produce conclusive and undeniable evidence for the non-existence of God. You cannot accomplish this, and therefore, all you can do is hope that you are correct. If you aren't, eternity is a very long time to be wrong.
@BlueVeins
@BlueVeins You still didn’t address this:
No. I’m not allergic to evidence. I have all the evidence I need. I don’t have to guess if there is a God. I’ve experienced Him, and my experience doesn’t need anyone’s approval to be true. No one can undermine my personal experience just because they have not experienced God. The proof being the Holy Spirit who lives in each believer, upon accepting Jesus as their personal Savior. The Holy Spirit is what transforms lives, like He did me and thousands of others. His job is also to teach and guide the believer, and there’s no way one can experience that until they have been born-again. Nor will they ever understand it until they are born-again. I haven’t dedicated 45 years of my life to someone I’m not sure exists. I know He exists. He lives in my heart and life.
The determining factor of one's authentic faith relationship with God is not one's denomination, religious practice or performance in Christian disciplines, but rather the presence of the indwelling Spirit of Christ, upon confession of faith. As it is written, “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom.8:9) Jesus' invitation always stands open for anyone to receive forgiveness, be welcomed into his family, and live eternally in heaven.
No. I’m not allergic to evidence. I have all the evidence I need. I don’t have to guess if there is a God. I’ve experienced Him, and my experience doesn’t need anyone’s approval to be true. No one can undermine my personal experience just because they have not experienced God. The proof being the Holy Spirit who lives in each believer, upon accepting Jesus as their personal Savior. The Holy Spirit is what transforms lives, like He did me and thousands of others. His job is also to teach and guide the believer, and there’s no way one can experience that until they have been born-again. Nor will they ever understand it until they are born-again. I haven’t dedicated 45 years of my life to someone I’m not sure exists. I know He exists. He lives in my heart and life.
The determining factor of one's authentic faith relationship with God is not one's denomination, religious practice or performance in Christian disciplines, but rather the presence of the indwelling Spirit of Christ, upon confession of faith. As it is written, “if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him. (Rom.8:9) Jesus' invitation always stands open for anyone to receive forgiveness, be welcomed into his family, and live eternally in heaven.
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