Who is more likely to go to hell? [Spirituality & Religion]

@Reject You're thinking logically. Religion isn't logical! :)

@walabby Maybe the point isn't to be logical, but to understand that there exists things outside of logic.

@Reject like what?

@Dolimyte Like the figures of religion. Logic is everything that humankind has managed to make sense of in this world. If there truly was a God, he would be well beyond that, wouldn't he? Maybe that's why we need faith.

@Reject why wouldn't logic apply to god. How is faith useful?

@Dolimyte Logic wouldn't apply to God because he is so much more than our limited ability to understand something. If you take one of us with low intelligence, clinically retarded and they are incapable of solving even basic math, does this mean that math isn't real? Perhaps to the one with a learning disability because they can't even begin to grasp it, but it's apparent to the rest of us. Consider God the one with greater knowledge of the afterlife or inner workings of the universe while we're stuck with those answers being unknown.

The point being each of us can only see and know so much in our one perspective. God is supposed to be greater than that. Simply because you can't see or experience something for yourself, that doesn't mean it's not real or possible, it just means you cannot yet prove it, there is no evidence of it in your eyes. Hence why you'd need faith.

Faith is useful to those who find solace in beliving a greater power that will care for them in all the ways we are unable to. It also helps even a scientist who's looking to break new ground in areas undiscovered by humanity with his theories. Maybe you just want to believe something positive for the things you love even when you can't say for certain if it will work out or not. Faith is guidance against everything we don't know.

@Reject wow, that was really offensive. I will grant that there may be things that we will never understand because it is beyond the limits of how our minds work, but I see no reason to assume that such a thing would possess knowledge or agency of any kind.

It's true that if I can't see or experience some thing that it may still exist, but if it has no messurable effect on reallity, what does it matter if it exists or not?

I see how faith is useful for believing in things that have no evidence, but if there is no evidence how do you know that belief is true? Is there any thing that I couldn't believe on faith alone?

@Dolimyte Offensive? Really? 🤔 Well, it is religion we're talking about. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. There's nothing to have other than assumptions when it comes to those matters. You might see no reason to assume agency in the unknown, but maybe others see no reason to assume there is nothing in it.

It's not about it's affects on reality. You're missing the point. It's about it's effects on more than reality. That's what matters. The benefit to be gained from things beyond the known. Maybe you don't see how that's helpful, but others can.

People can claim they know what's true, but wether it's a claim to the existence of God, or a claim to the nonexistence of him, neither can say they're right. Maybe to them whatever side they take is the "truth", and that's their prerogative, but I certainly believe you should respect that either way, no matter which belief or lack of belief they decide on.

@Reject the offencive bit was your use of the term "clinically retarded"

Reality is all that I can experience. If there is something outside of or beyond reality that effects other things not of reality, I don't see why I should concern myself with that.

You basicly said if you can't prove me wrong I'm justified in holding a belief. Is that right?

@Dolimyte I used clinically retarded to make the point that sometimes limitations can be severe. I can see how that might offend people though if they interpret that badly. My apologies.

That outside something does have some effect on reality. Not directly, but through the people in reality who can appreciate it. I understand you don't though and that's okay. You don't need to. Many people are perfectly happy without faith and good for them I say!

No, I don't like the word justified there. It's not about justification. It's just about why people have these beliefs, and how they have been beneficial. Justified or not is entirely up to the people observing them. I think people have the right to their beliefs, but justified or not is a different matter that's dependent on the individual. I've seen wildly unreasonable theists or atheits before, I personally wouldn't say either were justified, but then I've seen many who were. So again, that depends.

@Reject ok I think I see what youre saying here now. Are you saying that a belief has value if it benefits the holder somehow?

@Dolimyte Beliefs always have value, whether we benefit from them or not, otherwise we wouldn't believe in them. We have to see the meaning in something before we'll subscribe to it. Sometimes that's a good thing, sometimes it's a bad one. People decide whichever it becomes.

@Reject are you a Jordan Peterson fan by any chance?

@Dolimyte I am not familiar with him! Why do you ask?

@Reject because it sounds like your referencing his books. I think its absolute garbage, but I bet you'd like him.

@Dolimyte I see. Yeah, I don't read a lot of books. I wish I read more. Maybe I would like him! :) Thanks for telling me about his work.

@Reject no problem. Thank you for taking the time to explain your point of view to me