I Support Women's Rights

agreed that not everything is sexism.. but a fair amount is still thats what we must address.. Pay gap doesnt even come into it unless its same job..

It's a whole raft of other things too tho..like job opportunities.. like how employers will actively not employ women as they assume they will get pregnant and leave or cause isssues.. how men are promoted over women even tho both have same qualifications and experience... and as i mentioned childcare... all these issue need to be addressed so that women and men can truly work together for the greater good and freedom of both sexes..

Re statistically men more likely to face violence and violent death.. you are absolutely correct.. THE most dangerous thing of all is to be a young male.. they are more likely to be knifed etc.. BUT .. lets be totally fair here.. the violence is perpetrated by mostly men, or even almost exclusively by men against men..we don't want to mislead anyone.. it's not like men are in danger of violence or violent death from women.. yes it happens occasionally and some men even suffer domestic abuse.. ALL violence against another is abhorrent but the stats you refer to are mainly men against men..

It's important to be fair and reasonable... on all sides.. feminists who hate men are not real feminists.. they are extremists.. just like any extremist.. they dont represent the main group.. everyone should be a femimist as it helps both men and women..

SO yea i can assure you i wasnt referring to cases where pay gap isnt the same job.. etc..

I'm interested in the statistics and the causal connection and confounding factors

Often too much emotion is attached to the pay gap argument and clouds the facts
Sometimes this leads to the victimisation of women and in part that alone is a barrier and leads to impact on both men and women ability to thrive

As an example... one factor often ignored is testosterone's hormonal influence on men's ambition and drive and ability to compete...

...

By arguing male deaths are more likely because of male perpretators is illogical
Therefore you are saying men as victims are less important than women as victims

Again the statistics and causal and confounding factors should allow rational less emotive arguments that actually may lead to strategies that enhance ALL citizens lives

@yeronlyman: casual connections and ones that prove un-equal re jobs dont count.. they do NOT help the argument and weaken it.. so i am with you there.

aww isnt that a bit sexist re saying emotion is attached to the pay gap.. isnt that a way of dismissing it.. I have no emotion.. it's just a fact and proven.. it's not me saying it so i dont have to get emotional... I worry about you saying it lke that..using emotion to dismiss it.. that would be so detrimental.. like saying women who have been raped deserved it.. i knwo you wouldnt say that.. but it's the same dismissive language as if somehow it's in their imagination :(

Science re hormones have actually disproved that testosterone causes men to want to do better and have more ambition.. more and more the thinking is that it's conditioned and that this conditioning starts very early.. . as a girl in my generation we were taught men were better, stronger more important.. that our goal wasnt work but marriage... so we thought this... experiments where women are told they are rubbish at maths show they perform badly.. where they are told this is a skill women are good at they are good at it.. so much more than we used tothink is conditioned.. and this shows in that we now DO have more women maths and science graduates.. have women suddenly become better at maths? or is it that women are now offered more opportunities.. experiments where women have a lot of testosterone dont show them to be any different to their physical gender.. women and men can be equally ambitious.. do men who have low testosterone have less ambition?generally no.. so honestly more and more doors are opened to women.. and show that we are not as dissimilar as we think.. well not in terms of ambition.. for example.. andi dont pretend it's all encompassing..

when i first started work.. there was me and a guy same age.. on same section... we both worked hard.. HE was offered training and got sent one day a week to college.. I wasnt.. why? was i in some way less than him? No.. he just got a break i didnt cos he was a guy.. and in fact no women were offered the training.. he ended up ina top computing job.. i ended up washing dishes in a school kitchen.. not conclusive i knw but we were equal in terms of intelligence and hard working.. and ability.. things have improved a LOT since then but there is still a good deal of inequality..

I TRULY didn't say male victims of violence and death are less important than women.. in many ways you made it sexist.. i didnt.. I acknowledged it was true.. men are more likely to die of violence than women..there is no suggestion that regardless of whether its men harming men that doesnt mean they are less important.. just that it isnt sexism if it's mainly men committing violence against men.. it isnt an equality issue.. that doesnt change that it's lamentable.. I have two sons and i first read that statistic when they were 16-18... so i was very aware of that one.. I am not disagreeing with you it's lamentable but it has nothing to do with inequality.. and in fact perhaps things are changing there too..lots of girl gangs now behaving worse than men ever do so they say hurting each other.. so perhaps thats an equality you might welcome if you think it's unfair men are more likely to suffer violence?

It is NOT sexist about saying emotion is connected to it...

I never said the pay gap doesn't exist
I said the reasons for it are very nuanced

I pre-empted by saying stats / causal connections and confounding factors
And Relying on science not opinions based upon emotion

This applies to many arguments

To call it sexist is ridiculous
"Sexism" is [b]often[/b] used as a defence argument, especially when there is a lack of depth to understanding the facts

I dislike your comment about rape

As for your own experience
This is of experience value as a case study as an example case studies are important in medical literature
But is not a replacement for a random controlled trial

People will recall what suits their agenda or opinion and not recall the antithesis

Like you i have plenty of examples of observations from real life... both positive and negative


And again to defend my statements
I never made any sexist remarks
I said simply that by saying male victims are at the hands of male assilaiants is an illogical argument

@Adaydreambeliever: You said "everyone should be a feminist as it helps both men and women".

Feminism is seen as a campaign for equality for women. That's illogical. Eequality can't be one sided, it has to be for all.

@Caroline259 Well in a world where we are all equal there would be no need for feminism.. until such times, and while so many women are still shortchanged, suffer a lack of opportunities and are compelled to make more sacrifices than men.. then we need feminism.
How individuals define feminism is another thing.. and how we play with the words still another.. equality for women means equality with men.. so not one sided. And Feminism does generally take on board the inequalities and specific factors that sometimes count against men