Children aren't allowed to be children anymore.

@Torsten 100%

@Torsten Absolutely agreed 👍

@Torsten So I'm assuming you would be opposing

1. them being used as cheap labor (https://www.vox.com/policy/2023/5/3/23702464/child-labor-laws-youth-migrants-work-shortage)

2. them being indoctrinated with religion since an early age,

3. them being restricted on what they may or may not learn in school (e.g. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2023/mar/25/florida-principal-resigns-michelangelo-david)

?

@Elessar against child labor for sure

Against schools indoctrinating children with religion for sure

and yes being restricted on what they should learn in school. Stick to the curriculum and dont try forcing your world views on children. That aint the teachers job

@Torsten Why should parents be allowed to indoctrinate children with religion.

"Stick to the curriculum." What if the curriculum includes things you disapprove of? And while teachers shouldn't "force" a world view, they have to expose children to it. You can't teach history without at least some value judgment. But what conservatives want is to not teach any aspect of history they find embarrassing. Let's make believe slavery never existed.

@LeopoldBloom who said I agree with any kind of indoctrination to children?
sharing your religious beliefs with your child is not indoctrination. Forcing them to belive it and ignore all other religious beliefs and so on is.
Funny how people such as yourself never seem to question teachers but complain about what parents teach their children. That to me is insane

who is trying to hide their children from history? man, you people are obsessed with the past and slavery. Its good to teach history. What isnt okay is trying to make children feel guilty over it due to their skin color. And dont try telling me that shit doesnt happen. Of course it does

@Torsten Teaching kids that gay people exist and slavery was bad is not indoctrination. It's hilarious how you automatically give parents the benefit of doubt while automatically assuming that schoolteachers are these fascist tyrants. Nobody is making kids "feel guilty" about history, that's complete bullshit. What people like DeSatan want is to not mention those unpleasant aspects at all. And then you people will complain when kids end up learning about them anyway from some YouTuber. You probably think critical race theory is being taught in elementary school while not even being able to say what it is.

Maybe there are Quakers or other religious people who don't indoctrinate their children, but I challenge you to find any religious parents who tell their kids "this is the religion we follow, but who knows, maybe some other religion is true, so don't make up your mind until you've explored the other ones."

@LeopoldBloom teaching kids gay people exist isnt indoctrination, i agree. Filling their head with nonsense that they can be anything they wish just by identifying as it and that there are countless genders and so on, i would argue is though.
I knew you would claim kids are not made to feel guilty over slavery due to their skin. Very predictable. Of course it happens and yeah I trust parents over teachers, 100%. Parents for the most part, have their childrens best interest. Teachers I dont believe that to be the case at all and so many now seem to just force their world views on them.

I dont complain at all what my child learns on youtube or whatever because i know what he watches on there and I know he is smart enough to see bullshit when he sees it.

Challenge accepted. My parents did that to me and my siblings when it comes to religion and I did the same for my child. He knows about it and is free to believe as he wishes. there is no pressure what so ever and he is free to go learn about other religions as he pleases. Again he is smart enough to think for himself

@Torsten That's a very unusual approach. Many religious people wouldn't want their children to explore other religions. At least, that's discouraged in the Abrahamic faiths, maybe others aren't as restrictive.

As expected, you're either grossly exaggerating or misrepresenting how trans people and slavery are presented in schools. What I object to are laws forbidding teachers from even mentioning that gay people exist. In Florida, if a kid mentions that he has two daddies and another kid asks what he means, the teacher has to shut up or risk losing their job. It was this law that Bob Iger criticized, leading DeSantis to revoke Disney's administration of the Reedy Creek district (costing Florida taxpayers millions), and resulting in the current legal feud. You should be concerned about a governor retaliating against a business because the CEO was critical of a law. Although, it's demonstrating that DeSantis is in over his head, and if he can't handle Disney, he's not even close to being able to handle the presidency, even if you agree with all of his other positions.

@LeopoldBloom It is unusual i give you that. When you are not insecure about your beliefs, you dont need to force it on others though and when you trust your children to be capable of finding what is right for them, it isnt such a unusual concept.
My father is the most hardcore Pagan i have ever known and never forced it on any of us. I unlike some of my siblings never wanted anything else, it just fit with me.
I did the same my father did for me but to my son and he is not religious at all. He loves the stories and so on but doesnt believe it and thats cool with me.
In primary school tecahers tried forcing Christianity on him (not a private school) and it was a whole big thin over it. So yeah that experience and others have made me not trust teachers.
Im not just repeating shit i hear online or the media or politics and whatever other garbage. I am strictly going off personal experience.

Am I exaggerating? or maybe you just refuse to believe it takes place in schools. Again personal experience and even my sister is a vice principal and I hear the shit that goes on there. I dont know what its like in America when it comes to schools. I am not speaking for America here, so you going on about Florida and politicians, means shit all to me

@Torsten If you're not in the US then I will defer to you what goes on in your country. I just see this as a culture war issue here where the Republicans want to keep people distracted with stupid shit while they suppress voting rights and shift as much middle class wealth to the super-rich as possible.

@LeopoldBloom and this goes back to a thread i made a bit ago, whenever i talk about such things, people throw American politics at me. I get it, most here are Americans and whatever but maybe people should actually take note of who they're talking with and not assume everyone is American or speaking of American politics.
I am not in some "culture war". I dont give a shit about right vs left crap.
I only am sayin what i believe and when children are involved, I am very biased in that, but at least i wont hide that fact.
I am a father before anything else and my world is protecting my child, even if outsiders dont agree with my beliefs. that doesnt matter in the slightest because none of them are raising my child. I am.

@Torsten You seem to know a lot about US politics.

Can you at least DM me what country you're in? I promise to never mention it publicly if you don't want people to know for some reason. Unless you're in some totalitarian state where posting on here would get you in trouble if anyone found out.

@LeopoldBloom can I dm you and tell you? umm what makes you think i trust you to give that info? there is a reason i dont blast where i currently reside and its not because of a totalitarian state. Its due to people having a issue with others who dont think like them and say what is on their mind. Certain people cant handle that and start sending death threats your way, and now why i dont believe these people are a threat in the least. I have a child and you never know what sort of crazy you are interacting with online.
That is why i dont reveal where I reside to anyone that just asks.

I dont know a lot about American Politics. I never considered gender or race to be political. Those subjects are world wide though, so if it sounds like I know a bit about American politics, its only me saying what is happening around me and things i have seen online

@Torsten I'm not asking for your real name and photo, I'm just wondering what country you're in. I don't think anyone will track you down from a SW post and threaten your child because you think trans people should be second-class citizens.

From your description, it sounds like you live either in an Islamic country or North Korea.

@LeopoldBloom my real name and photo is up now.
I still am not saying where I am. Can never be too careful. Its not any Islam Country or North Korea or America or Russia (those are the few most try claiming i am on here).
It doesnt matter where I reside. fact is the things I discuss are not just a issue in one place

Also I have never once claimed trans people should be second class citizens.

@Torsten OK, then it's New Zealand where liberals will attack you if you express conservative opinions? I think you're being paranoid.

You have said that trans should not be discussed with children in schools. Since trans people exist, that's second-class citizenship if their existence can't be acknowledged, while at the same time, calling them "mentally ill." In the Soviet Union, dissidents were often called "mentally ill" because no one could possibly be critical of communism unless they were insane. Florida has also effectively outlawed trans surgery for adults. I take it you disagree with that?

@LeopoldBloom feel free to think I am in New Zealand. Why does it matter?

I also dont think religion should be discussed in schools and a bunch of other things. I certainly dont view religious people as second class citizens, would be weird considering i am religious.
There are things that just have no place in schools.
Yes i refer to people with gender dysphoria as having a mental illness. You say that like i am demeaning those who are mentally ill by saying that. That shows how little you know of me. I grew up around mentally ill people. Mental illness has run rampant through my family including my mother and brother and I think the world of them. Again not second class citizens.
its just the truth though. gender dysphoria is a mental condition.

As a adult, I think you are free to do with your body as you please as long as it harms no one else. If people want to mutilate themselves, go for it. That is not on my business. I only care when it comes to children.

@Torsten I'm just guessing you're in New Zealand as it has a reputation as a very liberal country. I have no idea if conservatives are so oppressed there that they dare not reveal their opinions.

Gender dysphoria is considered a mental condition. One treatment for it is gender reassignment or transition. Taking that treatment off the table would be like telling schizophrenics that they can't use psychotropic drugs and have to limit themselves to biofeedback or acupuncture. Those might be effective too, but doctors should be deciding what treatments are optimal, not politicians, and certainly not religious bigots for whom the very existence of trans people is offensive.

Children are not being "mutilated." That's right-wing propaganda. Treating gender dysphoria with surgery is a last resort and takes years to qualify for.

Prohibiting schools from pushing religious dogma isn' the same as prohibiting discussion of trans people. There's no problem with discussing religion in the proper context, like a history class where not mentioning it would be leaving out a lot. I went to elementary school in California, and remember in second grade learning about the Spanish missions. They were presented as nothing more than travelers' rest stops - no mention of the religious aspect or the enslavement of the California natives and the destruction of their culture.

@LeopoldBloom im not in New Zealand but again, feel free to think that. Its weird you want to know so bad. It changes nothing.
I am not conservative btw

yes Gender dysphoria is a mental condition and there are treatments for it. I am not against them except again when it comes to children.
If children want to socially transition, no issue there i guess. Its the hormone treatment, puberty blockers I have issue with and yeah the SRS treatment that does happen under the age of 18.
You can disagree with me on that all you like. I will never change my mind on that.

i disagree. Again there are just some things that have no place in schools and while you speak about just trans people being discussed in schools, I am talking about all this gender identity nonsense, like with endless genders and being able to be whatever you want and again dont try telling me that doesnt happen because I know first hand it does.
religion has no place either unless like you said in proper context say in History to understand certain things better, so i agree with you on that part.

and i am going to say it again, Drag queens have no place in schools

@Torsten OK, you're not in New Zealand. I can't imagine where you are that would be so oppressive, you can't even say what country it is. Maybe you're in Greenland or Liechtenstein or some other country with such a small population, you could be identified easily. Suit yourself.

You're entitled to your opinion. I defer to doctors rather than bigots whose only information comes from propaganda sources. You may not be a conservative, but you're parroting the conservative line. It's interesting how the same people who were against trans people in the past, are still against them, but for different reasons.

Kids view drag queens like clowns. They're not viewed as sexual. More kids are raped in church by priests and youth pastors than by drag queens. When the people bleating about drag queens are equally opposed to kids going to church, I'll start taking them seriously.

@LeopoldBloom Kids do not need to be exposed to religion.

One thing about drag queens in schools or trying to make it possible for under 18 to medically transition - surely people knew there would be serious backlash.

When LGBTQ was strictly an adult thing no one really had a problem with it. But then boundaries were over-stepped as far as what society would tolerate.

i am not saying I agree nor disagree with either side. Everyone knows though that things become serious once kids are thrown into the equation.

Kind of on the same level of this is the CRT deal. Things were fine for a while but then orgs like BLM decided it was all about them, wanted to go around defacing or destroying monuments, holidays, statues calling everything "racist."

I ain't happy about the present situation myself but ya know, all this "Let's call everything racist" and "Let's get kids involved in adult matters" has really p*ssed off the conservatives. They are now on the counter-attack big time.

So now, the minorities and also LGBT who were just trying to live quiet, normal lives now have to worry about what is to come.

@LeopoldBloom never claimed where I am is oppressive at all. That was you that assumed that. Also never claimed i could be identified easy. Idid however tell you the reason i dont just say where I reside and yet you keep trying to push it. Thats weird as hell.
It changes nothing for you where I am. All you need to know is I am not in American, so your politics mean nothing to me.

hey if not supporting children being chemically castrated is bigoted in your world. I will be the proudest bigot there is

funny how you bring this up again, or should i say disturbing. You bring up children being sexually abused more in a church as a way to dismiss other scenarios of children being sexually assaulted and around pedophiles and such.
That says all i need to know about you. All abuse to children is bad. I dont give a fuck if it happens less compared to somewhere else. Fact is it should not be happening anywhere ever.
stop making excuses with this bullshit

@HoeBag Kids are exposed to a lot of things and should be able to learn about them in a controlled and nurturing environment. We should not suppress this information out of fear of what bigoted terrorists might do. We have to fight back against the people who want to return us to the dark ages, not tiptoe around out of fear of upsetting them.

@Torsten I bring up sexual assault in church because it's usually the religious bigots who are bleating the loudest about kids being exposed to drag queens and other perfectly innocent people, while they're bending over backwards to protect the child rapists in their social clubs. It's pure hypocrisy. The reason child rape is so prevalent in churches is because it's tolerated.