Every time some idiot shouts “from the river to the sea”
It further justifies Israel’s right to exist.
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Burnley123 · 41-45, M
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Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 Seriously now? I don't know what meaning you give to this, but I'm pretty sure that the activists that popularized that slogan won't agree with you. 😅 Unless you are going to pull some strange idea out of a head, where Israel is allowed to excist... just not where it is right now.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Kwek00 Palestine will be free doesn't mention anything about Israel's right to exist.
It's about wanting freedom, of having their own state. Its about Palestinians overcoming oppression, not oppressing others.
To see this is anti-semetic you have to jump through several hoops. You have to decide that Palestinians can't be free within a two state solution or don't think that they can. It's an assumption based on a zero sum game between Israelis and Palestinians. Can't they both be free?
You would also have to deal with a major emphasis problem in that argument and ignore the multiple instances of Israeli politicians actually calling for ethnic cleansing and the removal of Palestinians from their land. Or, at the very least, draw a very obvious false equivalence between Palestinians chanting for freedom and Israeli politicians planning to oppress them.
It's about wanting freedom, of having their own state. Its about Palestinians overcoming oppression, not oppressing others.
To see this is anti-semetic you have to jump through several hoops. You have to decide that Palestinians can't be free within a two state solution or don't think that they can. It's an assumption based on a zero sum game between Israelis and Palestinians. Can't they both be free?
You would also have to deal with a major emphasis problem in that argument and ignore the multiple instances of Israeli politicians actually calling for ethnic cleansing and the removal of Palestinians from their land. Or, at the very least, draw a very obvious false equivalence between Palestinians chanting for freedom and Israeli politicians planning to oppress them.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 "[b]from the river to the sea[/b], Palestine will be free". That part is in the title. It's not just about wanting to be free, it's about having a territory from "the river" to "the sea".
The word "anti-semitism" isn't used in the main post, and it's not used in any reaction to your post that I'm able to read. So making it about anti-semitism isn't nescesary.
I don't have to deal with any Israeli politician. This is a slogan popularized by Palestinian nationalists. If you want to talk about issues on the Israeli side, we can. I have no issue with that. But this particulair is about the slogan: "From the river to the sea" followed up by a statement that I think doesn't follow. But pretending that that slogan is just about freedom, is pretty naïeve to say the least.
The word "anti-semitism" isn't used in the main post, and it's not used in any reaction to your post that I'm able to read. So making it about anti-semitism isn't nescesary.
I don't have to deal with any Israeli politician. This is a slogan popularized by Palestinian nationalists. If you want to talk about issues on the Israeli side, we can. I have no issue with that. But this particulair is about the slogan: "From the river to the sea" followed up by a statement that I think doesn't follow. But pretending that that slogan is just about freedom, is pretty naïeve to say the least.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Kwek00 I have read countless people (not the op tbf) count that chant as evidence if anti-semetism. People have lost jobs over this. It is used to designate pro-Palestine and anti-war people as anti-semites. Maybe things are different in Belgium but that is certainly the case here.
from the river to the sea,[b] Palestine will be free[/b]
I'm putting the other part in bold because it matters. If it was saying something else in the second part, that would be an issue but it's a wilful misinterpretation. Or an attempt at pedantic on both-sidesism that needs to be made to apply in all circumstances.
from the river to the sea,[b] Palestine will be free[/b]
I'm putting the other part in bold because it matters. If it was saying something else in the second part, that would be an issue but it's a wilful misinterpretation. Or an attempt at pedantic on both-sidesism that needs to be made to apply in all circumstances.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 So your issue is, that you are replying to countless people, and not the post that was made.
Yeah, just ignore the first part of the chant again... this feels like talking to a Trump supporter that only wants to put emphasis on the stuff they want to hear and just pretend that all the other crap doesn't excist.
[i]From Romania to the Adriactic Sea, all the Serbs shall be free.
From Romania to the Adricatic Sea, all the Croats shall be free.
From the France to the Barents-Sea, all Germanics shall be free.
From Jordan to the Sea, all the Jews shall be free.
From Lake-Kavu to the Kagera-River, Doesn't the idea of Hutu freedom make you quiver?[/i]
... all these groups just want to be free. Who doesn't want to support that? 😅
Yeah, just ignore the first part of the chant again... this feels like talking to a Trump supporter that only wants to put emphasis on the stuff they want to hear and just pretend that all the other crap doesn't excist.
[i]From Romania to the Adriactic Sea, all the Serbs shall be free.
From Romania to the Adricatic Sea, all the Croats shall be free.
From the France to the Barents-Sea, all Germanics shall be free.
From Jordan to the Sea, all the Jews shall be free.
From Lake-Kavu to the Kagera-River, Doesn't the idea of Hutu freedom make you quiver?[/i]
... all these groups just want to be free. Who doesn't want to support that? 😅
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Kwek00 Who doesn't want that indeed.
It's pretty intellectually lazy to call me a trump supporter. The idea that all things you disagree with have the same mode of discourse and the same traits. I use facts and evidence in my arguments. I will call out problems with my own side when they are there and I have done frequently. I think you dint fully understand your own ideological constraints.
At the moment, it's Israel, not Hamas that is carrying out a genocide. Taking a position down the middle makes that more likely to be successful. As was demonstrated when you tried lecturing northwest on this, you aren't very well informed on this issue, despite assuming otherwise. You miss the point and talk past it. Think as you will. This is my last comment.
It's pretty intellectually lazy to call me a trump supporter. The idea that all things you disagree with have the same mode of discourse and the same traits. I use facts and evidence in my arguments. I will call out problems with my own side when they are there and I have done frequently. I think you dint fully understand your own ideological constraints.
At the moment, it's Israel, not Hamas that is carrying out a genocide. Taking a position down the middle makes that more likely to be successful. As was demonstrated when you tried lecturing northwest on this, you aren't very well informed on this issue, despite assuming otherwise. You miss the point and talk past it. Think as you will. This is my last comment.
Kwek00 · 41-45, M
@Burnley123 I guess the "This feels like ..." didn't register either. Because you are doing the exact same thing, just registering what you want to hear and neglecting the context. "From the river to the sea" partially defines how this "freedom" is going to look like. Neglecting this dimension is the actual intellectually lazy part.
I guess you missed what happened a month ago? And that the Hamas charter doesn't allow Israel to excist either. Hamas is living in a fantasy world where a situation that has developed over more then 80 years, needs to be turned back and be redone. That position by itself is unobtainable without massive hardships. It's delusional IMO.
North-West? Wow, I admited my mistake. And then I asked a though question he backed off and ran. That's the guy you are going to bring into this conversation? Maybe you should ask North-West what Peer Reviewed really means... because the moment I pointed out his position was wrong he went into childish drama mode. At least I changed my position and just ran with it. But if you want to take the North-West position on this particulair toppic, where I call out something that is clearly 100% wrong, and you are going to double down on it and just pretend that the first part of the slogan has no baring on the idea of freedom this slogan is presenting, that's on you. Just like North-Wests r*tarded behavior when being called out is on him. The irony of calling someone "Intellectually lazy" can't be bigger.
I also take offense on the framing of the word "lecturing". Since I've always been frank about the fact that this particulair toppic is one I ussually keep clear off. Exactly because of the complexity and that I'm not aware of all the ins and outs. My discussion with North-West wasn't "lecturing", that's why I changed my position and standed corrected the moment I got corrected. If I were you, I wouldn't use this admission to feel good about yourself on the "from the river to the sea" part... because there is no discussion to be had about this. The message is clear, Palestine excists and shall be free from the river to the sea... meaning that the nation that currently excist out here needs to vanish for this slogan to become reality.
I guess you missed what happened a month ago? And that the Hamas charter doesn't allow Israel to excist either. Hamas is living in a fantasy world where a situation that has developed over more then 80 years, needs to be turned back and be redone. That position by itself is unobtainable without massive hardships. It's delusional IMO.
North-West? Wow, I admited my mistake. And then I asked a though question he backed off and ran. That's the guy you are going to bring into this conversation? Maybe you should ask North-West what Peer Reviewed really means... because the moment I pointed out his position was wrong he went into childish drama mode. At least I changed my position and just ran with it. But if you want to take the North-West position on this particulair toppic, where I call out something that is clearly 100% wrong, and you are going to double down on it and just pretend that the first part of the slogan has no baring on the idea of freedom this slogan is presenting, that's on you. Just like North-Wests r*tarded behavior when being called out is on him. The irony of calling someone "Intellectually lazy" can't be bigger.
I also take offense on the framing of the word "lecturing". Since I've always been frank about the fact that this particulair toppic is one I ussually keep clear off. Exactly because of the complexity and that I'm not aware of all the ins and outs. My discussion with North-West wasn't "lecturing", that's why I changed my position and standed corrected the moment I got corrected. If I were you, I wouldn't use this admission to feel good about yourself on the "from the river to the sea" part... because there is no discussion to be had about this. The message is clear, Palestine excists and shall be free from the river to the sea... meaning that the nation that currently excist out here needs to vanish for this slogan to become reality.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Kwek00 tldr.
OliRos · 18-21, F
@Burnley123 Don't be so naive. Or pretend to be for political reasons. Your comment is worthy of that well known Buddhist Suella Braverman.
OliRos · 18-21, F
@Burnley123 You know well what that chant represents, even if it doesn't say so in so many words.
If you are not naive, you are being disingenuous.
And, in case it's of any interest to you, I do support Palestinian independence and the removal of Jewish settlements (and Jewish settlers) from their illegal appropriation of the West Bank.
If you are not naive, you are being disingenuous.
And, in case it's of any interest to you, I do support Palestinian independence and the removal of Jewish settlements (and Jewish settlers) from their illegal appropriation of the West Bank.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@OliRos Good for you and I support the same. The only way of achieving that is to incentivise a policy sea change within the Israeli state. Mostly when politicians talk about wanting a two state solution, it's empty talk.
I'm not being disingenuous. I believe the things Hings I say and say what I believe.
Perhaps pro Palestine people shouldn't use that chant because it can be misinterpreted (as it so frequently does and is used as 'evidence' of anti semetism). That is a tactical point though, not an ethical one
I'm not being disingenuous. I believe the things Hings I say and say what I believe.
Perhaps pro Palestine people shouldn't use that chant because it can be misinterpreted (as it so frequently does and is used as 'evidence' of anti semetism). That is a tactical point though, not an ethical one
Zeuro · 26-30, F
@Burnley123 it literally is though.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Zeuro And to be free within Israel is not a genocidal goal. If the second part of the sentence said something else....
It doesn't.
It doesn't.