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ElRengo · 70-79, M
There is a lot of confusion on the meaning of objectivity.
All knowledge is subjective.
NOT mainly because of it´s limitations.
But because subjectivity is a primary property of the knowing subject.
Objectivity, as a primary property, belongs to things in themselves.
NOT to our knowledge of them but as they are, known or not.
When we say that some knowledge is (to a certain point) objective we are using the word as an adjective, thus as a secondary property.
With not main source on the knowledge but in a relative better description of what the described IS by itself.
That´s why scientific laws are formulated for collectives and not for particulars.
That is ceteris paribus (at equal conditions).
Something particulars do not grant.
But a collection of the same natural kind accomplish approximately enough for Science purposes.
And they do it in a causal way, so objectively.
So yes
"To avoid delusion, remain aware that there are many other valid perspectives and yours is a personal choice"
But..................
That belongs to the domain of knowledge.
And objectivity do not.
All knowledge is subjective.
NOT mainly because of it´s limitations.
But because subjectivity is a primary property of the knowing subject.
Objectivity, as a primary property, belongs to things in themselves.
NOT to our knowledge of them but as they are, known or not.
When we say that some knowledge is (to a certain point) objective we are using the word as an adjective, thus as a secondary property.
With not main source on the knowledge but in a relative better description of what the described IS by itself.
That´s why scientific laws are formulated for collectives and not for particulars.
That is ceteris paribus (at equal conditions).
Something particulars do not grant.
But a collection of the same natural kind accomplish approximately enough for Science purposes.
And they do it in a causal way, so objectively.
So yes
"To avoid delusion, remain aware that there are many other valid perspectives and yours is a personal choice"
But..................
That belongs to the domain of knowledge.
And objectivity do not.
CynicalSpaceMan · 26-30, M
@ElRengo
So, basically:
Objectivity constraints reality
Subjectivity governs the actions of individuals
and what gets most people fucked up is misapplying one to the realm of the other?
So, basically:
Objectivity constraints reality
Subjectivity governs the actions of individuals
and what gets most people fucked up is misapplying one to the realm of the other?
ElRengo · 70-79, M
@CynicalSpaceMan
Reality is not only constrained by it´s nature and interactions.
Constraints ARE part of the fabric of the objective universe.
"Subjectivity governs the actions of individuals"
Subjectivity is only a part of what governs only a part of individuals, the ones capable of some level of subjectivity.
But not even for them it governs all and not even most of what they do.
It seems that there is no subjectivity without a material basis.
And moreover, it developed helping to survive in a world with objective constraints.
On the last sentence you seem to equate our individual thoughts to some kind of "own" reality.
Well, thoughts are part of reality, yes.
But reality is wider than our thoughts, individual or social.
Reality is not only constrained by it´s nature and interactions.
Constraints ARE part of the fabric of the objective universe.
"Subjectivity governs the actions of individuals"
Subjectivity is only a part of what governs only a part of individuals, the ones capable of some level of subjectivity.
But not even for them it governs all and not even most of what they do.
It seems that there is no subjectivity without a material basis.
And moreover, it developed helping to survive in a world with objective constraints.
On the last sentence you seem to equate our individual thoughts to some kind of "own" reality.
Well, thoughts are part of reality, yes.
But reality is wider than our thoughts, individual or social.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@ElRengo @CynicalSpaceMan Have a problem with this though...
1. this doesn't cover your own thoughts.
2. Everyone is "capable" and is subjective.
3. Your thoughts do not necessitate reality.
4. Recognition of those thoughts, as not being real, is not being delusional.
5. Actions are not thoughts. You have a choice.
Sorry for going beyond the quote, yet I could have gone on as well on the whole original post and this comment.
"Subjectivity governs the actions of individuals"
Subjectivity is only a part of what governs only a part of individuals, the ones capable of some level of subjectivity.
Subjectivity is only a part of what governs only a part of individuals, the ones capable of some level of subjectivity.
1. this doesn't cover your own thoughts.
2. Everyone is "capable" and is subjective.
3. Your thoughts do not necessitate reality.
4. Recognition of those thoughts, as not being real, is not being delusional.
5. Actions are not thoughts. You have a choice.
Sorry for going beyond the quote, yet I could have gone on as well on the whole original post and this comment.
CynicalSpaceMan · 26-30, M
@DeWayfarer
To clarify:
I’m not saying subjectivity replaces constraints or that thoughts govern reality.
I’m saying that once constraints exist, the selection among possible actions is irreducibly subjective, whether reflective or not.
Reality determines consequences; individuals determine which consequences they accept via their chosen perspective.
It is the belief that any one perspective can be purely objective - the baseline of reality - that leads to pointless conflict.
Objectivity exists firmly in the realm of measurement. Of empiricism.
One can base their decisions on things that are objective, but that decision is, itself, subjective.
Because someone else could make a completely different choice that is based on the same objective quality of reality.
To clarify:
I’m not saying subjectivity replaces constraints or that thoughts govern reality.
I’m saying that once constraints exist, the selection among possible actions is irreducibly subjective, whether reflective or not.
Reality determines consequences; individuals determine which consequences they accept via their chosen perspective.
It is the belief that any one perspective can be purely objective - the baseline of reality - that leads to pointless conflict.
Objectivity exists firmly in the realm of measurement. Of empiricism.
One can base their decisions on things that are objective, but that decision is, itself, subjective.
Because someone else could make a completely different choice that is based on the same objective quality of reality.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@CynicalSpaceMan
I’m saying that once constraints exist, the selection among possible actions is irreducibly subjective, whether reflective or not.
Somewhat true, yet ignores the fact of endless possibilities.
Which is the bigger infinity? Both your constraints and possible actions are infinite!
So which is subjective? And which is the objective reality?
I have a math background FYI. We describe reality in infinities. And Chaos theory is very real.
I’m saying that once constraints exist, the selection among possible actions is irreducibly subjective, whether reflective or not.
Somewhat true, yet ignores the fact of endless possibilities.
Which is the bigger infinity? Both your constraints and possible actions are infinite!
So which is subjective? And which is the objective reality?
I have a math background FYI. We describe reality in infinities. And Chaos theory is very real.
CynicalSpaceMan · 26-30, M
@DeWayfarer infinity possibilities doesn't change the fact that constraints exist, human action based on said constraints are subjective, and the only objective way to weight one against another is by judging whether or not said decision serves the goal of the person who made it...
The constraints are reality, and the decisions are subjective.
The constraints are reality, and the decisions are subjective.
DeWayfarer · 61-69, M
@CynicalSpaceMan I suggest you look into alternate realities existing concurrently to your objective reality.
The math is extremely compelling. 🙃
The math is extremely compelling. 🙃



