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Is evolutionary theory written in stone?

I have posted this elsewhere but thought it was worth saying . I have always loved science and have qualifications in the subject . However I do realise that science has its limitations . We should not worship science or think scientists and their work are infallible as all scientific theories are just our present thoughts on that particular matter. Unfortunately there are some people who appear to put science on a far higher realm of almost infallibility and do not appear to know that scientific theories which were once accepted as facts have gone to the wall in the light of further research.
In the case of Darwinism, there is an additional difficulty. Well, Charles Darwin wanted to offer an explanation of how the present forms of animal and plant life emerged, he found that some of the pieces of evidence in that argument were inevitably historical. Any attempt to verify the Darwinian theory of evolution requires knowledge of the past yet can the scientific method be actually applied to the study of the past? The point is that such a method must use presently accessible evidence to reconstruct what happened in the past . The problem lies with the degree of plausibility with which it can be done. So important was this difficulty that in 1976 Karl Popper expressed hesitation over whether the Darwinian theory of natural selection could strictly be said to fall within the scope of a scientific method and hence be deemed scientific in character.
Although many evolutionists now think this to be an overreaction based on a legitimate concern, there remains a significant degree of uncertainty and provisionality to any conclusions that are based on the past, precisely because we cannot directly access the earths past history .
It is interesting that even 'Darwin's Rottweiler', Richard Dawkins, sees this:
" Darwin may be triumphant at the end of the 20th century, but we must acknowledge the possibility that new facts may come to light which will force the successes of the 21st-century to abandon Darwinism or modify it beyond recognition ."
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YoMomma ·
Its just a theory and an imaginary fictional one at that fyi
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@YoMomma Just a theory? A Theory is the highest accolade a scientific explanation can receive.

Science starts with observation. We look at the world, and we notice things. Many of these things seem to be related, and so we try to come up with an explanation as to how they’re related. This explanation is called a Theory… we can think of these as ‘Big T’ Theories, because they are based on demonstrable evidence and they have wide explanatory power. Scientists then test the Theory in order to prove that it is wrong. This is an important point, and it seems to constantly confuse non-scientists. Science doesn’t try to prove that a Theory is correct. Science tries to prove that the Theory is wrong, and the Theory is accepted only so long as we are unable to show that it is wrong.

Contrast this with our everyday ‘theories’ (my neighbour is probably cheating on her taxes… my friend is having an affair), which are simply vague hunches or convenient fictions - we can think of those as small-t theories. Usually we go looking for evidence to support these ‘theories’, and it is common for us to ignore evidence that contradicts them. It seems to me that it's these vague hunches or convenient fictions that people have in mind when they say that evolution is ‘just a theory’.

You’ll hear people say “Science has proven that this is true”. Only the advertisers say this. You’ll also hear “Science has not proven that this is true”. This shows a lack of awareness of how science works. Science has never proven that something is true, because science never tries to prove that anything is true. Science tries to disprove its own theories, and accepts those theories only so long as they can’t be disproved.

Some people claim that the Theory of Evolution is not a real theory because ‘it cannot be falsified’. This is a nonsense. So, what would falsify the Theory of Evolution? Well, if we opened up a stratum of the Earth’s crust that was laid down, say, 100 million years ago and found there the fossilised remains of a modern-day giraffe, then the Theory of Evolution would have a fatal problem. The same would apply if we found fossils out of place in the Earth’s strata. Every single fossil puts the Theory of Evolution at risk, and yet, despite the hundreds of millions of fossils on the record, the Theory still stands. We never see a ‘modern’ rabbit (as an example) suddenly appearing in fossils formed, say, 60 million years ago. The Theory of Evolution is drawn from the evidence… and the evidence we continue to gather consistently fails to falsify it.

Experimentally testing the evidence from which a Theory is developed is complemented by testing the consistency and coherence of the Theory itself (if our Theory is valid, then we should see the following…). This is where science uses the (much-misunderstood) hypothesis.
At its heart, a hypothesis says things like: “because of the evidence we have, the Theory says that chimps and humans have a common ancestor. It therefore follows that there will be strong genetic matches between chimps and humans”. Then we examine the genes of both.
It’s worth noting that even at this level we aren’t trying to prove that the hypothesis is correct… we try to show that it’s incorrect.

To achieve this, we form a Null Hypothesis, which in this case might be “there are no more similarities between chimps and humans than between any other two species”… and we then try to show that to be the case. This is an important point. We don't try to show that the hypothesis is valid... [I]or experiment is trying to show that the null hypothesis is valid[/I].

If our experiment cannot show that the Null Hypothesis is correct (i.e. we find that there are, in fact, enormous similarities), then we still don’t say that the hypothesis is correct… we say that we have ‘failed to accept the null hypothesis’. After all, we may have made an error, or missed something, and the next person to test the hypothesis might find reason to accept the null hypothesis.

So science doesn’t try to ‘prove’ its theories are correct, nor does it try to ‘prove’ that the hypotheses that come from those theories are correct. Science collects evidence in an attempt to disprove the theories it has formed from earlier evidence, and tests the validity of those theories by forming and testing hypotheses that would invalidate them.
Speedyman · 70-79, M
'At its heart, a hypothesis says things like: “because of the evidence we have, the Theory says that chimps and humans have a common ancestor. It therefore follows that there will be strong genetic matches between chimps and humans”. Then we examine the genes of both.'

Of course your problem is that it's the old boys have teeth and crocodiles have teeth so therefore boys are crocodiles argument. Strong genetic matters don't necessarily mean there was a common ancestor. You are just making an assumption in this and the initial assumption you make might be wrong. Your problem is that your theory is unprovable scietificalky because it relies on historical not present data. You do spend an off a lot of time writing about a flawed theory. @newjaninev2
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Speedyman In reality (not at its heart) the null hypothesis says that there will be no retroviral genetic matches between primates.
You confound Theory and hypothesis testing.

your theory is unprovable scietificalky

All Theories are unprovable scientifically.

historical not present data

What on Earth are 'present' data?
That makes no sense!
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Speedyman Anyway, how did you make out with the multi-choice options for explaining the genetic data?
Speedyman · 70-79, M
Present data of those we can prove now. Haven't you ever been in the lab? They do experiments there all the time@newjaninev2
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Speedyman Those 'what' we can prove now? What are you talking about? You're just mumbling about non-specifics
Speedyman · 70-79, M
well if you can't see it then there's no point in discussing it@newjaninev2
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Speedyman Oh, is that really all you have... a puerile response of 'I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100, can you guess the number'?
Speedyman · 70-79, M
You just cannot see the issues involved I'm sorry. @newjaninev2
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Speedyman Yet another puerile response of 'I'm thinking of a number between 1 and 100, can you guess the number'!

Seriously?
Bushranger · 70-79, M
@Speedyman So, only the physical sciences are valid, then? Even though the social sciences can generate experiments, they don't have the rigour that sciences like physics or chemistry have. But they do share the connection of using statistics to test hypotheses.

Also history should not be considered to be a valid area of research as there is no way that hypotheses can be tested. Starts to limit the options, doesn't it.
Speedyman · 70-79, M
No it's interesting but you didn't make that point when I talked about historical evidence for something else which day you didn't believe it 😄@Bushranger
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Bushranger I suspect he thinks that experimentation necessarily involves laboratories and flasks and Bunsen burners and metres of glass tubing and flasks, etc
Speedyman · 70-79, M
You really are quite hilarious in your silly and naive statements@newjaninev2
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Speedyman How would you know? You don't respond to any of my statements.
Bushranger · 70-79, M
@Speedyman I said that I didn't believe that history was legal. As a field of study I believe it is valid, however, it doesn't seem to have the rigour that even the social science have (even though it is sometimes referred to as a social science). Unfortunately, history is open to a lot of interpretation and, at times, misinterpretation.

Does your opening word indicate that you believe that the social sciences should be held in the same esteem as the physical sciences?
Speedyman · 70-79, M
You mean you pick and choose what you like if it happens that your theory@Bushranger
Bushranger · 70-79, M
@Speedyman I think I understand your response. I've said in another post that history is written by the victors (I can't remember who first said that, and I'm too lazy right now to look it up). Australia has an original history theme that pretty much ignored around 60,000 years of prior settlement. It is improving, but there are still some historians who would argue that including Aboriginal culture and their treatment by Europeans would be considered a "black armband" interpretation of history. Some people still feel they are the victors.
Bushranger · 70-79, M
Got the better of me. It was Churchill.
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Bushranger
Aboriginal culture and their treatment by Europeans

I remember the first time I lived in Australia (decades ago). I was in the Melbourne CBD, and I remember wondering where all the Aboriginals were. Then I realised that I had never seen any Aboriginals in my suburb (Toorak). Further reflection led me to realise that nobody, but nobody, in my social circle ever mentioned Aboriginals... that it was like Aboriginals were invisible.

I spent a couple of weeks in the Dandenong Ranges near Melbourne, and just kind of assumed that there would be Aboriginals. There weren't.

It really shook me up.
Bushranger · 70-79, M
@newjaninev2 It hasn't changed a lot to the best of my knowledge. When were you living over here?
Bushranger · 70-79, M
@newjaninev2 Australians are more familiar with Maori than with Koori I think. But sport helps get them into the spotlight and NAIDOC week has encouraged at least the public broadcaster to repeat some very good Aboriginal television. Just a shame there's not a lot more of it.
Speedyman · 70-79, M
The problem is that if you believe in the 'survival of the fittest' then what is wrong with that? After all, according to you, people are just a bunch of chemicals anyway? @Bushranger
Bushranger · 70-79, M
@Speedyman Your poor attempt at humour has provided me with the opportunity to elaborate, so thank you.

Indigenous Australians lost the war against European forces. As the victors, the European version of history has been less than complimentary towards the losers.

What is wrong with that? Well, it has nothing to do with that ridiculous phrase, survival of the fittest, but everything to do with greater power and resources. Jared Diamond's "Guns, Germs and Steel" provides a good explanation of how European based cultures have attempted to destroy indigenous cultures. It's been a while since I read it, probably time to revisit the book.
newjaninev2 · 56-60, F
@Speedyman the fittest what? The fittest genes for the many different environments (other genes, the biosphere, and the natural environment) in which they find themselves. In order to successfully replicate, genes don't need to be the fittest... they just need to be good enough for now.