wistful, the universe’s physical laws and organising principles are identified by using the scientific method. Magic is any effect that is achieved by violating those physical laws of the universe, or by contravening its organising principles.
All religions rely heavily on claims of magic, even though there is no evidence whatsoever that physical laws and organising principles have ever been violated. Religion’s reliance on magic therefore necessitates faith. Faith is merely pretending to know something that one does not actually know.
Once a person is prepared to accept such pretence, once they begin to fool themselves to the extent that reason and rational inquiry become impaired... they become certain. “Those who can make you believe absurdities, can make you commit atrocities.” (Voltaire)
wistful, nothing about sunrise violates the universe’s physical laws and organising principles. Claims of 'magic' are common across all religions (and form part of the deception to which you referred). There's not much 'wow' factor in: then Muhammed left the planet on an Apollo rocket, or and Jesus sent out for lots of fast food for the masses to eat, or when you're dead, then like everything else, you stay dead, or when they reached the Red Sea, the Hebrews boarded a ferry.
Individual claims of magic occurring are termed 'miracles' when they are made by religions, and it's significant that they are isolated incidents... as MasterLee said, it's used for special pleading.
David Hume said that miracles would be so extraordinary that to accept them, you would have to regard the suspension of nature’s laws as more likely than any other explanation - including deliberate deception, error, or the pursuit of personal benefit.
wistful, Dr. Steven Novella has already answered your question (assuming that there's actually some sort of question in your post)
"What do you think science is?
There's nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results.
Which part of that exactly do you disagree with?
Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?"
SuperCute, are you suggesting that religion uses rigour, methodology, and self-correction?
As I said below, all religions rely on magic. There’s no justification for ring-fencing any one particular religion. Any such attempt would necessarily involve excursions into logical fallacies, Special Pleading, and unsupported claims.
newjaninev2 I have disagree about "magic". Common day occurances can be 'magical', if you are willing to use them to deceive. The sun rises, yet it is magical if you know how to predict an eclipse before anyone else can. And not every religion uses magic... many do. But not all.
Religion isn't a discipline. There's no rigour, no methodology, and no self-correction.
Religion isn't pitted against science, because religion isn't a way of gaining knowledge about the universe.
SW-User
You guys are trying, and that's encouraging. Religion truly does require discipline; every bit as much as science. And all religions will be tainted with explanations in magic- save one. This is their bond and their undoing.
There is nothing magical about religion. People who fail to find answers in the Earth's sciences, math, humanities... look beyond themselves. They make a leap of faith based on societal shortfalls, and human failings. Then, society takes advantage of those of weak will and mind, and uses their freedoms to perpetuate and protect their own frailty even through outright slavery or brainwashing. Hence how terrorists caused others to fly two jets into the world trade center buildings. But, it still took science to build the planes that they flew.
SW-User
The battle isn't between science and religion. Everyone should understand this by now. It's between four basic beliefs on what happens when we die.
And what created Science? Did a cosmic cow fart out the fibinaci sequence? And who created the cosmic cow? Or perhaps we are all just we come to existance by sheer luck? Then, why are we still here... the dying embers of... what? ... or why? ... or who? When science comes up with that, will you get back to me? Because until then... well, that cosmic cow isn't going to milk itself...
