@hippyjoe1955 He didn't he said he was the son of God and he said "Ye are Gods" if you know the context of Psalm 82 then you know that Elohim/Theos was not only used on God but also other figures
Refuters have a tendency to push back, ignore or just deny the meaning of what Jesus said "ALL POWER has been given unto him in heaven and in Earth" Matthew 28:18 - this power was given to him even before Genesis 1:26 "let US make man in our image."
Refuters have a tendency to overlook that when Jesus said no man has seen the Father but the Son, (speaking of himself while he was in the flesh body of a human male) that:
1) Genesis 3:8 tells God walked and talked with Adam and Eve
2) Genesis chapter 4 Cain and Abel brought offerings to God and God talked with them.
3) Genesis 5:24 God walked and talked with Enoch and took him .
4) God talked to Noah.
5) Genesis 18:1 the Lord appeared to Abraham he set and ate with Abraham he talked to Abraham also Genesis 12:7 and 17:1
6) Genesis 26:2 the Lord appeared to Isaac / 26:24
7) Genesis 35 9 the Lord appeared to Jacob
8)1 Kings 3:5 / 9:2 the Lord appeared to Solomon in a dream
9) Exodus 3:16 / 4:5 / the Lord appeared and in 3:6 the Lord told the people that he appeared to others but they didn't know his name.
And those are not including his prophets he appeared to, Or Jacob saying he has seen the Lord face to face. SO WHO DID THE PEOPLE LISTED ABOVE SEE AND TALK TO.
Psalms 110:1 David said and "THE Lord said unto MY Lord sit at my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool." David is speaking of TWO LORDS, Lord is translation meaning God...... The Lord is the Father and My Lord is the SON, both are Gods.
Psalms 2:12 David also said kiss the Son lest he be angry and you perish in the way when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him. ((Now why would David say that about the Son, unless))
In the Old Testament there are many, many scriptures where the Lord says he is the deliverer, it is through him that his people will be delivered. Below are a few of many and Jesus said he is the only way to salvation
1) Isaiah 43:11 I, even I am the Lord and there is No Savior besides me
2) Jeremiah 3:23 surely in the Lord our God is the salvation of Israel
3) Hosea 13:4 you are not to know any God except me there is no other savior besides me
4) Psalms 3:8 Davis said salvation belongs to the Lord
5) Isaiah 52:10 that the whole earth may see the salvation of our God
Isaiah 9:6 unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given, and the government shall be upon his shoulders. And his name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, THE MIGHTY GOD, EVERLASTING FATHER, The Prince of Peace[/c]. Just in that scripture alone he is holding the title of God and Son
Isaiah 7:14 the Lord HIMSELF shall give you a sign, a virgin shall conceive and bare a son, and his name shall be called Immanuel. ( Emmanuel in Hebrew means GOD WITH US)
New Testament
John 1:1-2 in the beginning was the WORD and the Word was with God and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. (Two separate beings both are God. John goes on to tell us that nothing was created without him, he became flesh and dwelled among his creation and his creation refused him /John chapter 1.)
John 20:28 Thomas said MY LORD, MY GOD (now why would Thomas call him Lord God?)
John 8: 48-59 Jesus himself said before Abraham was I AM - (and I think most know that I Am is an English translation of his name that he gave to Moses, Yahweh / I Am That I Am. Plus before Abraham was means before Abraham was born)
Jesus also identified himself each time he said I Am - the bread of life/ the light of the world / the door / the Good Shepherd / resurrection and life / the way the truth the life / the Vine.
Matthew 26:65 / Luke 5:21 Sadducees and Pharisees accused Jesus of blasphemy saying he made himself EQUAL WITH GOD, because Jesus forgave sins, and Jesus healed and they tried to kill him twice.
Matthew 12:8 for the Son of Man is Lord, even of the Sabbath day. (Jesus told the Sadducees and Pharisees he directly that he was Lord and Lord is an English for Adonai. And he was Lord meaning God of the Sabbath.)
1 Corinthians 15:24 tells us that Jesus is going to give the Earth back to our Father, right now Yeshua, Jesus is and was the legitimate God of this world even in the Old Testament.
Above this some
When I read the Old Testament the Hebrew / Israelites/ Jews didn't get it right then and continue to mess up over and over and over, so
@GhostInject I humbly submit my reply. Let us discuss.
Firstly, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. And God said, "Let US make man in OUR image." (Genesis 1:1, 26)
The Bible's account of creation in Genesis 1:26 provides a profound insight into the nature of God, revealing a plurality within the Godhead. When God said, "Let us make mankind in our image, in the form of us," it highlights the unity and cooperation between the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit in the act of creation.
This verse showcases the Trinity in action, demonstrating that it wasn't just one person of the Godhead working alone, but rather the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit working together in perfect harmony, in creating the heavens and the earth. This unity and cooperation underscore the intricate and beautiful nature of God's being, and serve as a powerful reminder of the unified role in creation.
JESUS IS GOD'S MESSIAH??
You said:Scripture consistently presents Jesus as God’s Messiah, mediator, and servant.
Why does Father God need a Messiah, when He is sinless?, the Bible says. He is [b]pure and holy. WITHOUT sin.[/b]
God the Father is inherently holy, righteous, and incapable of sin, as sin is contrary to His very nature, with verses like Habakkuk 1:13 stating His eyes are too pure to approve evil.
The Bible also teaches that Jesus is His sinless Son, who came to bear humanity's sins; who became our righteousness, enabling believers to be made righteous through faith in Him.
However, the verse that directly describes God's character is:
"You are good, and what you do is good; teach me your decrees." (Psalm 119:68)
And,
"God is light; in Him there is no darkness at all." (1 John 1:5)
These verses emphasize God's purity, holiness, and sinlessness.
Habakkuk 1:13 says, "Your eyes are too pure to approve evil."
This highlights God's complete separation from sin.
The Bible verse that directly describes God's sinlessness is:
"God is not a man, that he should lie, nor a son of man, that he should change his mind."
Deuteronomy 32:4 says, "He is the Rock, his works are perfect, and all his ways are just. A faithful God who does no wrong, upright and just is he."
These verses emphasize God's perfection, justice, and lack of sin or wrongdoing. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lots of effort for who knows why. Repeatedly...the bible says Jesus is the son of God and sits at his right hand. I have no idea what theological authority you are referencing that says Jesus is God. Even on the cross..."father.. why have you forsaken me?". The purpose of Jesus was to offer guidance to the disciples, gain acceptance of God as real, and to die for the forgiveness of man's sins.
more proof pure scripture Numbers 23:19 God is not a man nor a son of man John 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him. 1 John 4:12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
1 Timothy 6:16 God, the King of all kings and Lord of all lords.16He alone can never die, and he lives in light so brilliant that no human can approach him. No human eye has ever seen him, nor ever will. All honor and power to him forever! Amen.
@Diotrephes Nope he saw the Angel of the lord and Heard the voice of God Read Exodus 3, Angel of the lord appeared and God spoke through the Angel... Acts 7:30-34 confirm this by stating "Moses heard the voice of God" and both OT and NT tell us "No one has seen God"
The Hebrew biblical framework has nothing to do with Jesus' teaching. Judaism was and is an exclusive religion of the Jews. Christianity is universally inclusive.
@Achelois "Jesus was a messenger not a messiah, they twisted the bible and turned him into someone to worship."
Here are some relevant Bible verses showing Jesus as both Messenger AND Messiah:
- Hebrews 1:1-3: "Long ago God spoke to our ancestors in many and various ways by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by a Son... The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact imprint of God's very being."
Malachi 3:1: "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me."
*Jesus as Messiah:*
- John 1:41: "We have found the [b]Messiah" (said by Andrew to Simon Peter).[/b]
- Matthew 16:16: "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God" (said by Peter to Jesus).
- Mark 1:1: "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God."
*Other relevant verses:*
- John 14:24: Jesus says, "The word that you hear is not my own, but the Father's who sent me." - John 5:23: Jesus says, "That all may honor the Son, just as they honor the Father."
These verses highlight Jesus' role as a messenger of God and his identity as the Messiah.
@GhostInject obviously I'm not going to change your mind, so this is mostly for anyone else that happens upon this thread that is looking for the opposite viewpoint on this topic. [media=https://youtu.be/XkpvGZ8GNQc?si=kY4t873ZYs0O_NZl]
@GhostInject Why do you believe that? The concept of Father Son and Holy Spirit is best explained with a few questions. Do you have a will. Not the thing you write up before you die but a will, Something that says Let me go shopping for example. So does God. That is what we call God the Father. Do you ever think about what you have determined to do? Go shopping? How do I get there what do I shop for etc. That is called your thought or stream of consciousness. In the case of God we call that God the Son. Jesus is the thoughts of God, the Logos. Do you have a body? If you want to go shopping and you decide how to go to the store and you know what you want when you get there do you go in your body? With God we call that God the Spirit. So the Will of God determines and instantly from that Will springs the Thought and the Thought is carried out by the Spirit.
