According to Catholic teaching, the "New Testament" is not the [u]only[/u] source of Divine Revelation. The three sources of Revelation are Scripture, Tradition, and the Magisterium, all three of which are infallible. Welcome to SW, by the way! 🌷
@helenS What exactly is the verse on that from the Bible? I've never read in the Bible where it said tradition and magisterium are divine revelation. Please back that up with scripture.
Yes, and according to Catholic teaching, you can also pray to the Saints and that's found no place in the Bible. The Bible, in fact, tells us not to pray to saints or anyone but Jesus or God the Father. Not even to idols or images of God or saints.
@LadyGrace Sweet LadyGrace, thank you for your comment, and now I feel like I have to defend Catholicism... the Bible, as it is now, is a work of the Church's Magisterium. What is and isn't part of the Bible has been decided by the Church – many early Christian scriptures didn't make it into the Bible simply because the Magisterium of the Church so decided. The Gospel of James is an example, it tells the story of Virgin Mary and her parents. It is the earliest assertion of her perpetual virginity, meaning her virginity not just prior to the birth of Jesus, but during the birth and afterwards. The only reason it's not a part of the Bible is that the Church so decided. Praying to the Saints is, of course, not the same as praying to God. It's just asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ for their intercession. Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others might intercede for us if we ask them.
TheGospel of Jamesis an example, it tells the story of Virgin Mary and her parents. It is the earliest assertion of her perpetual virginity, meaning her virginity not just prior to the birth of Jesus, but during the birth and afterwards. The only reason it's not a part of the Bible is that the Church so decided.
James is one of our books of the Bible. Matthew presents the ministry of Jesus as largely the fulfilment of prophecies fromthe Book of Isaiah, and Matthew 1:22-23, "All this took place to fulfill what had been spoken by the Lord through the prophet: "Look, the virgin shall conceive and bear a son...", and is a reference to Isaiah 7:14.
Isaiah 7:14 KJV - Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.
Praying to the Saints is, of course, not the same as praying to God. It's just asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ for their intercession.
What God says about dead loved ones? The dead hear nothing.
1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 “Brothers and sisters, we do not want you to be uninformed about those who sleep in death, so that you do not grieve like the rest of mankind, who have no hope. For we believe that Jesus died and rose again, and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus, those who have fallen asleep in Him.
Scripture says that these saints cannot intercede for us, and that's why we have Jesus, as the Bible states Jesus to be the one and only Meditator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5. The Bible also says that the Dead hear nothing. Followers of Christ, are "asleep" in Christ. Given that Christ is our only Mediator between God and man, there's no need for any other mediator between us and God. It is an insult to God to pray to the saints, when they did nothing for our salvation nor died on the cross for our sins. God did not hold them as worthy to be mediator for us, or on our behalf. When Jesus died on the cross, then we were under the New Covenant and able to talk to God through Jesus. Once you cross over, that's it. There's no mediation from dead saints. Further, the Bible describes "saints" as a “holy one,” someone who is set apart for God's special purposes, which every follower of Jesus Christ is a saint...being specially marked out as God's people.
Ephesians 1:1 emphasises the centrality of Christ Jesus in the Church and the importance of holiness of life ('the saints' =those who live their lives in 'faithful' ways after the example of Christ Jesus). Such lives are to be lived 'in Christ Jesus'. As recorded throughout the Bible, the manner in which the prophets and apostles consistently referred to church members in their revelations and in written epistles was “saints.” The term “saint” or “saints” is found in the Bible about 100 times, about three dozen in the Old Testament and 62 of which appear in the New Testament. If we worship saints instead of Jesus or pray to them, then we are violating the First Commandment. We are holding them higher than God. If they could mediate for us, we would not have needed Christ as our only mediator. God said it himself in His Word that He appointed and approved Jesus as our only Mediator between God and man.
It's just asking our departed brothers and sisters in Christ for their intercession.
The Bible shows us that Jesus speaks to the Father on our behalf.Romans 8:34says that Jesus “is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” In 1 John 2:1 we read that Jesus is our “advocate with the Father,” and from Hebrews 7:25 we learn that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for us. We don't need a middleman to substitute for Jesus.
Exodus 20:3 "Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. Thou shaltnot make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above,..." That includes Idols or even pictures of idols...anything that we worship or hold above God.
@LadyGrace It's difficult for me to reply because I am not an educated Catholic, apart from the standard Catechism. I feel you accuse Catholics of idolatry. Idolatry is committed whenever a creature is honored and revered in place of God. Catholics do not divinize what is not God. They believe that those who already dwell in heaven can pray for the living. Those in heaven do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they put forward the merits which they acquired on earth through the one mediator between God and men, Christ Jesus. ...So is our weakness greatly helped by their fraternal concern. Sorry I don't have better words 😐
I feel you accuse Catholics of idolatry. Idolatry is committed whenever a creature is honored and reveredin place of God.
Never. I don't make the rules. It Is God that said idolatry is committed in any denomination, whenever anything....including photos, statues, people, creatures, anything man-made, anything that takes the place of God and is worshipped, honored, or revered instead of Him and placed before or idolized in place of God, instead of making God first in their lives, is described as idolatry. Anything that we hold as being important, instead of or put before God.
They believe that those who already dwell in heaven can pray for the living. Those in heaven do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they put forward the merits which they acquired on earth.
I hope I didn't hurt your feelings and you won't be upset with me, because I'm only going by what God's Word says and there's no verse in the Bible, I have seen, that says those who already dwell in heaven can pray us into heaven. If so, could you ask the priest what verse that would be? When would the prayer of saints be more effective than God's desire to save the living?
We cannot pray for souls to go to heaven after they've crossed over into eternity. That is why Jesus said to make our choice of where we shall spend eternity, today, before we die. Because after death, scripture says, "comes the judgement." There's no second chances. If there were, just think how many evil people, after they have died and seen that God is real, would change their mind and say, "Oh, I believe in you God!" That just won't happen. That would hardly be fair to those who had faith in God and took Him at His Word, by faity, while they were still alive.
The Bible shows us that Jesus speaks tothe Fatheron our behalf. Romans 8:34 says that Jesus “is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us.” In 1 John 2:1 we read that Jesus is our “advocate with the Father,” and from Hebrews 7:25 we learn that Jesus “always lives to intercede” for us. So does the Holy Spirit intercede for us when we pray.
In Revelation 6:10, we see martyrs in Heaven praying to God, asking Him to take specific action on earth. These are saints who have died and are now in God's presence.They're actively praying for God's justice on earth for persecuted believers.
@helenS The encyclical Mystici corporis Christi from Pope Pius XII (1943) holds thatMary was also sinless personally, "free from all sin, original or personal". The Catechism of the Catholic Church teaches that by the grace of God "Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long."
However, the Bible says that all have sinned and fall short of the grace of God. It also says that we were all born with the sin nature by Adam and Eve, and in need of salvation. Mary, although revered as Jesus' mother, was not sinless. No Bible verse says differently. In Hebrews it says that we are not to even ask anyone to intercede for us but Jesus. After Jesus died on the cross, priests were no longer needed it says in Hebrews.
@LadyGrace Dear LadyGrace, I am really not upset with what you wrote. 🌷
I feel the things we are talking about are much much more important to you than they are to me.
I didn't even know that Mystici Corporis contains teachings about Mary. I learned in school that this Papal encyclical teaches the Church as the mystical body of Christ – the Church is the mystical body of Christ. So the Church is two-faced: it has a Divine side, which is always immaculate and free of any sin (like Christ), and a human side, which, of course, consists of sinners, even criminals.
Everyone in the Church is a sinner, from a Chaplain in a remote village up to the Holy Father. We are all sinners, we need salvation, and we can get salvation only through Christ, and we can get to Christ only through his mystical body, the Church. That's all I know. I learned it as a child. It may be no longer valid.
@helenS The Church symbolizes the Body of Christ. The church is not two-faced. The body of Christ consists of believers and sometimes, unbelievers as well, but believers are not holy and free of any sin or perfect like Christ. They have never claimed to be, and if they did, they would be liars. The only one Holy is God, whom those who attend church, worship. Their sins have been forgiven, but that doesn't mean that we will never sin again in our lives. As long as we are in this flesh and fighting against this flesh, we will sin. That's when we ask Jesus to forgive us, so that we can restore our fellowship with God, but we do not lose our salvation. It's like if you had an argument with your daughter, or son, or husband....arguments break that fellowship a little bit, but that does not break our union with them as our family. I thank God, that when we get to heaven, it is then that God shall make us perfect and holy, just as He is. And you know something? God invites everyone into his church...no matter who they are. He loves them all. Though we are sinners, he still loves us.
Everyone in the Church is a sinner, from a Chaplain in a remote village up to the Holy Father. We are all sinners, we need salvation, and we can get salvationonlythrough Christ, and we can get to Christ only through his mystical body, the Church.
If I could, let me tweek that just a little bit, please, according to His Word.
Everyone in the Church is a sinner
, SO RIGHT.
from a Chaplain in a remote village up to the Holy Father.
Scripture says no one is Holy, but God. Not even the priest. He was born with sin, like anyone else, so he cannot forgive our sins. We go straight to Jesus for that. Jesus is our only Mediator between God and man. 1 Timothy 2:5 Scripture says call no one holy, but God.
We are all sinners, we need salvation, and we can get salvationonlythrough Christ,
Yes. You got it!
and we can get to Christ only through his mystical body, the Church.
We can get to Christ through prayer, and by reading His Word by faith, or by word of testimony, or from teachers/ministers, who teach the true gospel, but Jesus said to be careful who we believe, because not all teachers and ministers preach the true Word of God. They sometimes water it down, or teach falsely, and claim that that's what the Bible says, but sometimes they don't teach what the Bible says. They don't know their Bible and that's why Jesus said to test the spirits and see who is telling you the truth. In fact, Jesus said if what a teacher or preacher tells you does not match up exactly with the Word of God, then you will know that they are a false teacher, and leave them. Look at this verse:
Galatians 1:8KJV: But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
@LadyGrace I haven't been lying to you. I just stated some facts about Catholic thinking, on which you replied, so we had a fruitful discussion. I was raised Catholic. My relation to God is probably more complicated than yours. It's of the "not with you and not without you" type.
