I think a lot of religious people are pretty down to Earth, principled people who try to be good...

@DeWayfarer No, by religious people I mean people who follow a established religion buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam etc.

"Religion attempts to control" I find that to be a misnomer as I believe that institutions attempt to control which is not restricted to religious institutions only. No, I don't think religion requires a large group of people to control others although it has happened again I'd put that down to institutions usually in the form of Government.

@Misanthropic all I can say is to study the orgins of religions from caveman societies and their shamans to the beings of societies. Then compare those various societies to what exists today.

Don't forget today's Zo'é tribe in Brazil. Very interesting society because it's the only nudist polygamist society in existence today. The Zo'é tribe goes back at least a thousand years.

Yet sadly not for very long because of this very control that religion forces upon them.

The more a religion attempts to "outreach" or pushes their views on others the worse that society becomes. Another example is the Islamic religion in Iran or Afghanistan.

The answer is not to push. Don't interfere in others beliefs. Yet no religion is willing to do that. That includes all large group oriented religions.

@DeWayfarer I can agree with not pushing religion others.. I disagree with institutions that force their values on people who don't wish to live the same way they do however I'm talking about people who follow a religion and believe in it without engaging in oppressive activity.

Fight the opressors not the cloak they use to oppress people, is the way I see it.

@Misanthropic I have yet in decades to see that in action. Mostly because those groups... "know not what they do" Emphasis quotes!

@DeWayfarer The reason oppressors can oppress is because they use peoples beliefs against them, this isn't limited to religion, it is in politics, the media and human communication in general. When people are smart enough to cut the snake off by its head then there'll be no room for tyrants.

Condemn the sword or condemn the man who holds it? Sort of thing.

@Misanthropic no the reason "the religious" oppression works is because it's forms a societies moral values. Then keeps the society oppressed by continuous repetition until compliance happens among the majority.

It's how Hitler and his flunkies brainwashed prisoners into actually cheering their very own parades as they drove on by.

I know this technique. My father couldn't understand it why the very prisoners he was with actually where cheering Hitler during WWII.

They just "know not what they do"!

Yet Hitler took this from religion itself! All religions have been applying this very technique for thousands of years.

Even Aristotle once quoted.

"Give me a child until he is 7 and I will show you the man."

He lived in 384-322 BCE.

The reason he could do that is because of religious brainwashing was prevalent during those times.

@DeWayfarer There are always going to be oppressors with or without religion.. it's like when I tell people I hate the Government when really the government is formed multiple things.. it has its military, it's health service, its police, its welfare system etc. Now when I say I hate the Government I can't expect everyone to be on board with me because they don't know what I know, their beliefs are different to mine, they don't see things from my perspective, in order to get people on board with me I would have to be specific about what it is I hate.

A lot of religious values are built around what people believed at the time "don't kill people" "don't steal" very agreeable values at first glance. The problem is life is more complicated than that for example someone might steal because they are starving or someone might kill in defence. Most religious people can see the nuance in old traditions; rules being broken.

But even without religion a system of power will set standards for people to follow, this is seperate to being religious or having beliefs this is taking those beliefs to fit an agenda and oppressing.

We all have beliefs whether they are spiritual or not, we all have values and standards and they vary. Manipulation isn't bred from religion, it is built from imposing your own values on others which I am afraid every single person does to some extent.

Don't fight the guy who prays to the Lord, or goes to church every Sunday.. fight the guy who says hey the lord is angry with these guys we need to exterminate them.

Fight the wrongful action, fight the tyrant. The tyrant is not a belief but a person who uses belief.

@Misanthropic the problem with your theory is there has never been a society without religion. Why I said you have to go before civilization.

Once a society has been established, it already has a moral code. A code that was established long before that.

Why the moral code of the Zo'é tribe is so unique! You see they are nothing more than a single unique tribe and have been for a least a thousand years.

To develop any kind of society it absolutely must have the moral code first.

Then you can brainwash!

@DeWayfarer I could debate this for hours but my original point is most of the religious people I know aren't shoving the bible down anyones throat, they are usually quite kind and understanding people.. It's the people who use the institution for insidious means who deserve criticism or to be held accountable for their actions not the average John Doe who follows the religion.

@Misanthropic 50% of my 251 known blocks against me on this are because of religious people pushing their values down EVERYONE'S throats!

They push, I push back therefore I get blocked.

I block or mute absolutely no one.

@DeWayfarer How are they shoving it down your throat? Are they spamming your dms? Posting jesussy shit all over your posts? Come on my guy.

@Misanthropic posting their moral values outside of their own assigned groups!

You see I have all those "christian/Bible... etc" groups blocked!