Misconception, Martyrdom in Islam

@RosaMarie
With all due respect
“ Islam has been conquering and converting [b]at the tip of a sword[/b] for almost it's whole existence.”
That is not true and is purely your ignorance when it comes to history especially on the biography of prophet Mohammed and how Islam spread during his time.

https://similarworlds.com/religion/4251770-Islam-was-NOT-spread-by-sword-Many-people-say

@RosaMarie
My post is saying
You cannot kill a civilian or an innocent person
And die in such battle and then be considered a martyr
Which is proven by my scholars and in many incidents of prophet Mohammed’s documented life
One which I even mentioned in this post

And actually what the majority of Muslims believe in and somehow that’s my new version of Islam which only “few” follow ?😅

@Islamreligion Islam was founded in 610 in the middle east. By 711, they had spread through North Africa and were crossing into Spain. In eight years, they held all of Spain. That wasn't a social call or a diplomatic visit. It was a conquest. They would hold parts of Spain for the next 700+ years. But I'm sure you're right and it was a totally non violent conquest.

Don't worry, I know just as much about the crusades and how awful Christians were. I'm not trying to pick on Islam. But in practice - in reality - it has not been the non violent religion you describe.

@RosaMarie
“ Islam was founded in 610 in the middle east.”

Another misconception about Islam.
Islam is not a religion that was founded in 610 or introduced a new God.
Muslims only believe that Mohammed is the last prophet from God.

And again when we judge Islam we judge it by the life of prophet Mohammed
And the teachings of Islam
Not every single historical event after
There is a difference between history and religion.

Moreover ,
Saying a Muslim ruler decided to rule over a land (and when it comes to Spain the Muslims actually advanced the country and made it better)
And saying Islam was forced on people by the sword

Are two completely different statements that cannot be confused and messed up
Because Islam in the big picture was not forced by the sword
The Muslims who decided to rule over Spain never forced anyone into Islam
And many non Muslims lived in it
, Actually the majority were non Muslims according to historical records

@Islamreligion You are making all of the sane excuses that Christians made and still make to defend vile actions. That wasn't real Islam. That was a nation leader. The form of Islam that awful leader followed wasn't the true form. What you are doing is called self deception. Jesus had a few things to say on that topic. I imagine Mohammed might have as well, through I don't know for sure.

@RosaMarie I never made any excuse
I only spoke the truth.
everything mentioned in my post if you look it up you will find it’s true in Islamic teachings with reference.


The thing is you say your opinion as solid as fact then say things like “ Mohammed might have as well, [b]though I don’t know for sure [/b]“

See ma’am you don’t know Islam and it’s teachings
Only bits and bits of some historical events after Mohammed’s death
that you wish to turn into a religion

@Islamreligion In the post above, you absolve Islam of any responsibility for the bad actions of its followers because their actions didn't not align with the teachings of the religion. In the post below, you remind everyone of the violence which has been done by other religions. It's hypocrisy.

The teachings don't mean squat if many of the practitioners ignore them and practice violence in the name of that religion. I understand that the teachings don't promote violence. Who cares. Seriously, who cares about the teachings when there is 1400 years of violence in the name of Islam. Just like the 2000 years of violence in the name of Christ.

@RosaMarie
How come it’s hypocrisy?
The Muslims themselves during the life of prophet Mohammed used to do bad things
And he’d lecture them for it
Just because someone is a Muslim or believe they are
doesn’t mean they follow Islamic teachings to the letter
Some Muslims drink
Some Muslims do drugs
some have gay sex
Some miss their prayers
Some curse hurt and insult people
Some Muslims kill innocent people
Some Muslims lie steal etc
^
All of these people are Muslims yet do things that Islam clearly tell them not to.
Just like a traffic light
Not everyone follow it.

—-
But apparently according to you if a Muslim eats pork or drinks alcohol he is sinning against his religion but if he kills an innocent person he is following his religion ?
No ma’am that is the real hypocrisy
That what the biased media since 2001 been feeding you.


I tell you prophet Mohammed stopped a battle in anger because a non Muslim woman (a civilian) was killed
And you stubbornly say “Islam” teaches to kill civilians and it’s a religion that teaches Violence.


I do not deny that Muslims have done /do bad things
But it’s not the fault of the religion
You have the good and bad even in atheism
Judging a religion
By event A or person B
Is not academic
If you don’t discuss the teachings themselves, you don’t have an argument to present .


anyone can twist anything into what they desire to justify their actions
Az-Zumar - Verse 18

{
Who listen to speech and follow the best of it. Those are the ones Allah has guided, and those are people of understanding.}


That’s why in Islam ,
You need both belief & good deeds to go to heaven
Because Someone might have the basic belief of Islam
But will end up in hell because of their evil actions
Al-Baqarah - Verse 82

But they who believe [b]and do righteous deeds - [/b]those are the companions of Paradise; they will abide therein eternally.

@Islamreligion

[quote]Hindus have a history of violence
So do atheists
So do Christians
So do Jews[/quote]

You literally posted that in these comments. None of those belief systems approve of violence. You are perfectly fine calling all of them out for the violence of the followers of those religions. Yet you can't abide when I do the same for Islam. That is hypocrisy. You must maintain your unsullied image of Islam, so you decouple the actions of followers from the teachings. By that measure, every group you listed above should also not be held responsible for the actions of some of the group members. QED.

@RosaMarie lol actually you didn’t continue reading
Because I also said
“ So you having a problem with the actions of some Muslims
Does not change my opinion about my religion and it’s core peaceful teachings”

Because I don’t judge my religion by person A or person B

Nor do I judge Christianity by the crusaders I actually have my own academic reasons to deny Christianity
Me denying Christianity due to crusaders is not academic
Because some of the most violence events in history were done by atheists does that mean believing in no God is dangerous?

@Islamreligion I did read that. Those core teachings aren't relevant if many followers ignore them.

@RosaMarie actually the majority do follow them
The minority are the ones that don’t lol
If the majority follow what you think of Islam
The world today wouldnt stand a chance considering how Muslims are almost 2 billion
You are just throwing vague statements

@RosaMarie
I said it and I’ll say it again
“ I don’t judge my religion by person A or person B

Nor do I judge Christianity by the crusaders I actually have my own academic reasons to deny Christianity
Me denying Christianity due to crusaders is not academic and pathetic
Because some of the most violent events in history were done by atheists does that mean believing in no God is dangerous?”

You cannot debate me on an academic level which is unfortunate

@Islamreligion Only one of us is making this personal. I've not attached your intellect or any other aspect of you as a person. Just your arguments. You, on the other hand, have at several points indicated that I'm not your intellectual or academic equal. Such personal attacks have no place in academic or otherwise civilized discussion. You repeat your points and continue to disconnect Islam from the actions of its followers. That's your choice, but not one I respect or agree with. It's dangerously naive and history has shown that it didn't work for other religions. I have real life shit to do and this isn't worth any more of my time.

@RosaMarie
I did not tell you that you are lacking intellect I only said in the beginning that one of your statements were out of pure ignorance .
And I still do believe you are throwing a lot of vaque statements backed with no religious reference or knowledge. I on the other hand in my post mentioned several Islamic teachings that are backed up with religious reference if you look them up.

There is a difference between calling someone stupid /ignorant
And telling someone they lack knowledge on a certain aspect

I lack knowledge about many subjects it’s only human.
However Im sorry if I indicated otherwise.



I repeat my points because you keep repeating the same vaque points such as talking about history (mostly inaccurate too ) than the teachings of the religion and it’s scripture.
And when it comes to history we can speak the same about atheism then I guess atheism is morally dangerous no?

And I’ll surely disconnect the action of some Muslims from Islam if it contradicts Islam. That’s pure logic.

If a Muslim drinks / kills innocent people etc
although the Quran/ Hadith say it’s not allowed
Which is more correct ?lol


Our discussion is going no where by now

Have a good day

@RosaMarie my entire post are words which
I quoted it from a famous Muslim sheik /dr
Followed by endless amount of Muslims
And unlike you his field of study and speciality is Islam
A Muslim scholar who had debates and discussions in many respected places
His name is omar suleiman

Just to illustrate to you how our discussion is based on a specialist in this field and a person who is saying their opinion with no knowledge about Islam teachings and scripture

@Islamreligion I speak of history because history is fact. Or if not fact, then our collective best understanding of what happened where, when, and hopefully why.

You probably won't like hearing this and won't agree, but religious texts don't carry any academic weight in agreements unless you are debating the religion itself. They are not factual accounts. They are spiritual and moral in nature. Closer to a self help book than anything scholarly.

That's why I keep dismissing and ignoring your references to them. On the whole, anyone with power, wealth and a connection to Islam was likely to use that power to harm non believers. Same as the Christians. And the Jews. And the atheists. All of them had books filled with teachings of peace. All of them ignored it in favor of holding up those teachings to advocate violence.

@RosaMarie
History is not fact when in this same history we have the good and bad
And same history documented by different individuals adding their biased opinions

THe only history you can use as a solid argument is history where prophet Mohammed was live things he did and commanded
Why can’t you simply judge the religion by what prophet Mohammed said and practiced ?
You cannot judge atheism by person A or B
Otherwise no one would become atheist
Same with Christianity Hinduism Buddhism etc
The moment you judge Islam by history you are not debating Religion no more

Let me share with you a quote I like

I'll throw a quote back at you.

Those who don't learn history are doomed to repeat it.

All of the best debate s about the best ideas isn't worth the breath used is no one implements or follows those ideals.

I get it that you are fully invested in your religion and Mohammad. Just like there are genuinely good Christians who are just as deeply invested in the life and teachings of Jesus. Good for you and good for them. That doesn't automatically make Jesus or those Christians right. It doesn't mean they have the one and only voice that should be heard. That same goes for you and for Mohammed.

We could discuss the ideas of Mohammed all day. I will still end up stuck on the following question. What is the value of these ideas when the loudest and most visible of his supporters don't follow his teachings? And when they don't, there is no clear and collective outcry from the majority. Without that clear and collective outcry, the majority become complicate in the acts of the minority. Thus, all of Islam is perceived to be in support of such acts.

Which brings us back to the value of ideas if they don't move people to better themselves? If they are only debated by a few scholars and otherwise are just ink on paper?

I will not accept or respect "but our teachings say" arguments from any religion. They are strawmen arguments, without value or substance.

@RosaMarie if we are
gonna debate religion using history
The most relevant choice
Would be choosing the time where Mohammed lived
What he preached and practiced as proof against this religion
The only reason you are dodging that choice
Is because you lack knowledge about the religion itself
If you are gonna say look at person b
Or event c
Then you don’t have an argument cuz I can easily throw that bomb at you
Literally you cannot have a logical discussion with a Muslim with that mindset
Because even Muslims dissociate themselves from it
If a Muslim in Norway steals
What does that have to do with me ? Quran say don’t steal and surely the judge won’t throw 2 billion Muslims in jail because of that
Simply talk to me about Quran and Hadith and biography of prophet Mohammed
Because that is Islam
Otherwise again you don’t have an argument
Even Quran itself says there are Muslims who don’t follow it correctly
Even Quran says there are good and bad people in every religion

@RosaMarie https://similarworlds.com/religion/4291766-Islam-inclines-towards-peace-The-problem-is-many

@RosaMarie
https://similarworlds.com/politics/4283146-Was-prophet-Mohammed-told-by-God-to-be-just

@RosaMarie https://similarworlds.com/education/4281416-Do-you-know-who-built-the-first-university-in-the

@Islamreligion I am not interested in discussion about religion because it's all made up. There are no Gods or Prophets. Only bad people that use religion as a tool to manipulate and control others. That's why I talk about events. Because the real world consequence of all the man made trash is that real people suffer. If I could snap my fingers and all religions, memories of religions, the whole idea of religion would immediate end and never return, I would. And the world would improve for it.

@RosaMarie most important one that is relevant to our discussion
Where the Quran answers you

https://similarworlds.com/religion/4274466-Do-not-judge-a-religion-by-a-person-the-Quran