This page is a permanent link to the reply below and its nested replies. See all post replies »
LeopoldBloom · M
Even if the peace plan in Gaza holds until next year, normally the prize goes to the people who signed it, not the people who arranged it. The 1994 peace prize went to Yasser Arafat, Yitzhak Rabin, and Shimon Peres, not Bill Clinton. So the prize next year would go to Netanyahu and whoever his counterpart is in Hamas.
swirlie · 31-35
@LeopoldBloom
First of all, there was NO peace plan put in place between Trump and Netanyahu because Hamas had been excluded from the secret meeting.
What was put in place was a 'cease fire' arrangement which had a 48 hour time limit on it, which after it had expired, fighting and bombing resumed as usual.
First of all, there was NO peace plan put in place between Trump and Netanyahu because Hamas had been excluded from the secret meeting.
What was put in place was a 'cease fire' arrangement which had a 48 hour time limit on it, which after it had expired, fighting and bombing resumed as usual.
LeopoldBloom · M
@swirlie Incorrect. Hamas' sponsors in Qatar were involved, which is why Hamas released the hostages. They wouldn't have done that if they hadn't been included. It's also a lot more than just a simple ceasefire. You can read about it here if you're interested.
https://similarworlds.com/middle-east/5416786-Israel-and-Hamas-agree-first-phase-of-Gaza-ceasefire-deal
I'm no fan of Trump but he was the only one who could have pulled this off. Trump is very popular in Israel, more popular than Bibi, who ran on how close he is to Trump. What Trump did was jump the gun by announcing that Bibi had agreed to the plan, putting Bibi in the uncomfortable position of having to accept it after the fact. As for Hamas, Trump has a close relationship with the Qataris (i.e., the plane they gave him). The Qataris asked Trump if he could prevent Israel from bombing them again, and Trump said yes, if you get Hamas to agree to this thing. Which is what happened.
Despite the repeated violations of the ceasefire and Hamas' failure to turn over the dead hostages' bodies, the International Stabilization Force that will take over Gaza from the IDF is being put together right now. It has not been "bombing as usual;" the ceasefire violations have consisted of sporadic attacks by Hamas and limited bombing--nothing like the bombing before.
https://similarworlds.com/middle-east/5416786-Israel-and-Hamas-agree-first-phase-of-Gaza-ceasefire-deal
I'm no fan of Trump but he was the only one who could have pulled this off. Trump is very popular in Israel, more popular than Bibi, who ran on how close he is to Trump. What Trump did was jump the gun by announcing that Bibi had agreed to the plan, putting Bibi in the uncomfortable position of having to accept it after the fact. As for Hamas, Trump has a close relationship with the Qataris (i.e., the plane they gave him). The Qataris asked Trump if he could prevent Israel from bombing them again, and Trump said yes, if you get Hamas to agree to this thing. Which is what happened.
Despite the repeated violations of the ceasefire and Hamas' failure to turn over the dead hostages' bodies, the International Stabilization Force that will take over Gaza from the IDF is being put together right now. It has not been "bombing as usual;" the ceasefire violations have consisted of sporadic attacks by Hamas and limited bombing--nothing like the bombing before.
swirlie · 31-35
@LeopoldBloom
Again, there was no PEACE PLAN signed, Leo.
There was only a ceasefire arrangement which had a 48 hour expiration time.
The rest of what you wrote as you dodged my point is quite irrelevant to our discussion here.
Again, there was no PEACE PLAN signed, Leo.
There was only a ceasefire arrangement which had a 48 hour expiration time.
The rest of what you wrote as you dodged my point is quite irrelevant to our discussion here.
LeopoldBloom · M
@swirlie Did you look at my other post and read the peace plan itself? It was a lot more than just a 48 hour ceasefire agreement. In fact, that's not even mentioned. You must be thinking of some other ceasefire agreement. Here it is if you're interested.
1. Gaza will be a deradicalised terror-free zone that does not pose a threat to its neighbours.
2. Gaza will be redeveloped for the benefit of the people of Gaza, who have suffered more than enough.
3. If both sides agree to this proposal, the war will immediately end. Israeli forces will withdraw to the agreed upon line to prepare for a hostage release. During this time, all military operations, including aerial and artillery bombardment, will be suspended, and battle lines will remain frozen until conditions are met for the complete staged withdrawal.
4. Within 72 hours of Israel publicly accepting this agreement, all hostages, alive and deceased, will be returned.
5. Once all hostages are released, Israel will release 250 life sentence prisoners plus 1,700 Gazans who were detained after 7 October 2023, including all women and children detained in that context. For every Israeli hostage whose remains are released, Israel will release the remains of 15 deceased Gazans.
6. Once all hostages are returned, Hamas members who commit to peaceful co-existence and to decommission their weapons will be given amnesty. Members of Hamas who wish to leave Gaza will be provided safe passage to receiving countries.
7. Upon acceptance of this agreement, full aid will be immediately sent into the Gaza Strip. At a minimum, aid quantities will be consistent with what was included in the 19 January 2025 agreement regarding humanitarian aid, including rehabilitation of infrastructure (water, electricity, sewage), rehabilitation of hospitals and bakeries, and entry of necessary equipment to remove rubble and open roads.
8. Entry of distribution and aid in the Gaza Strip will proceed without interference from the two parties through the United Nations and its agencies, and the Red Crescent, in addition to other international institutions not associated in any manner with either party. Opening the Rafah crossing in both directions will be subject to the same mechanism implemented under 19 January 2025 agreement.
9. Gaza will be governed under the temporary transitional governance of a technocratic, apolitical Palestinian committee, responsible for delivering the day-to-day running of public services and municipalities for the people in Gaza. This committee will be made up of qualified Palestinians and international experts, with oversight and supervision by a new international transitional body, the "Board of Peace," which will be headed and chaired by President Donald J. Trump, with other members and heads of state to be announced, including Former Prime Minister Tony Blair. This body will set the framework and handle the funding for the redevelopment of Gaza until such time as the Palestinian Authority has completed its reform programme, as outlined in various proposals, including President Trump's peace plan in 2020 and the Saudi-French proposal, and can securely and effectively take back control of Gaza. This body will call on best international standards to create modern and efficient governance that serves the people of Gaza and is conducive to attracting investment.
10. A Trump economic development plan to rebuild and energise Gaza will be created by convening a panel of experts who have helped birth some of the thriving modern miracle cities in the Middle East. Many thoughtful investment proposals and exciting development ideas have been crafted by well-meaning international groups, and will be considered to synthesize the security and governance frameworks to attract and facilitate these investments that will create jobs, opportunity, and hope for future Gaza.
11. A special economic zone will be established with preferred tariff and access rates to be negotiated with participating countries.
12. No one will be forced to leave Gaza, and those who wish to leave will be free to do so and free to return. We will encourage people to stay and offer them the opportunity to build a better Gaza.
13. Hamas and other factions agree to not have any role in the governance of Gaza, directly, indirectly, or in any form. All military, terror, and offensive infrastructure, including tunnels and weapon production facilities, will be destroyed and not rebuilt. There will be a process of demilitarisation of Gaza under the supervision of independent monitors, which will include placing weapons permanently beyond use through an agreed process of decommissioning, and supported by an internationally funded buy back and reintegration programme all verified by the independent monitors. New Gaza will be fully committed to building a prosperous economy and to peaceful coexistence with their neighbours.
14. A guarantee will be provided by regional partners to ensure that Hamas, and the factions, comply with their obligations and that New Gaza poses no threat to its neighbours or its people.
15. The United States will work with Arab and international partners to develop a temporary International Stabilisation Force (ISF) to immediately deploy in Gaza. The ISF will train and provide support to vetted Palestinian police forces in Gaza, and will consult with Jordan and Egypt who have extensive experience in this field. This force will be the long-term internal security solution. The ISF will work with Israel and Egypt to help secure border areas, along with newly trained Palestinian police forces. It is critical to prevent munitions from entering Gaza and to facilitate the rapid and secure flow of goods to rebuild and revitalize Gaza. A deconfliction mechanism will be agreed upon by the parties.
16. Israel will not occupy or annex Gaza. As the ISF establishes control and stability, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) will withdraw based on standards, milestones, and timeframes linked to demilitarization that will be agreed upon between the IDF, ISF, the guarantors, and the United States, with the objective of a secure Gaza that no longer poses a threat to Israel, Egypt, or its citizens. Practically, the IDF will progressively hand over the Gaza territory it occupies to the ISF according to an agreement they will make with the transitional authority until they are withdrawn completely from Gaza, save for a security perimeter presence that will remain until Gaza is properly secure from any resurgent terror threat.
17. In the event Hamas delays or rejects this proposal, the above, including the scaled-up aid operation, will proceed in the terror-free areas handed over from the IDF to the ISF.
18. An interfaith dialogue process will be established based on the values of tolerance and peaceful co-existence to try and change mindsets and narratives of Palestinians and Israelis by emphasizing the benefits that can be derived from peace.
19. While Gaza re-development advances and when the PA reform programme is faithfully carried out, the conditions may finally be in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, which we recognise as the aspiration of the Palestinian people.
20. The United States will establish a dialogue between Israel and the Palestinians to agree on a political horizon for peaceful and prosperous co-existence.
1. Gaza will be a deradicalised terror-free zone that does not pose a threat to its neighbours.
2. Gaza will be redeveloped for the benefit of the people of Gaza, who have suffered more than enough.
3. If both sides agree to this proposal, the war will immediately end. Israeli forces will withdraw to the agreed upon line to prepare for a hostage release. During this time, all military operations, including aerial and artillery bombardment, will be suspended, and battle lines will remain frozen until conditions are met for the complete staged withdrawal.
4. Within 72 hours of Israel publicly accepting this agreement, all hostages, alive and deceased, will be returned.
5. Once all hostages are released, Israel will release 250 life sentence prisoners plus 1,700 Gazans who were detained after 7 October 2023, including all women and children detained in that context. For every Israeli hostage whose remains are released, Israel will release the remains of 15 deceased Gazans.
6. Once all hostages are returned, Hamas members who commit to peaceful co-existence and to decommission their weapons will be given amnesty. Members of Hamas who wish to leave Gaza will be provided safe passage to receiving countries.
7. Upon acceptance of this agreement, full aid will be immediately sent into the Gaza Strip. At a minimum, aid quantities will be consistent with what was included in the 19 January 2025 agreement regarding humanitarian aid, including rehabilitation of infrastructure (water, electricity, sewage), rehabilitation of hospitals and bakeries, and entry of necessary equipment to remove rubble and open roads.
8. Entry of distribution and aid in the Gaza Strip will proceed without interference from the two parties through the United Nations and its agencies, and the Red Crescent, in addition to other international institutions not associated in any manner with either party. Opening the Rafah crossing in both directions will be subject to the same mechanism implemented under 19 January 2025 agreement.
9. Gaza will be governed under the temporary transitional governance of a technocratic, apolitical Palestinian committee, responsible for delivering the day-to-day running of public services and municipalities for the people in Gaza. This committee will be made up of qualified Palestinians and international experts, with oversight and supervision by a new international transitional body, the "Board of Peace," which will be headed and chaired by President Donald J. Trump, with other members and heads of state to be announced, including Former Prime Minister Tony Blair. This body will set the framework and handle the funding for the redevelopment of Gaza until such time as the Palestinian Authority has completed its reform programme, as outlined in various proposals, including President Trump's peace plan in 2020 and the Saudi-French proposal, and can securely and effectively take back control of Gaza. This body will call on best international standards to create modern and efficient governance that serves the people of Gaza and is conducive to attracting investment.
10. A Trump economic development plan to rebuild and energise Gaza will be created by convening a panel of experts who have helped birth some of the thriving modern miracle cities in the Middle East. Many thoughtful investment proposals and exciting development ideas have been crafted by well-meaning international groups, and will be considered to synthesize the security and governance frameworks to attract and facilitate these investments that will create jobs, opportunity, and hope for future Gaza.
11. A special economic zone will be established with preferred tariff and access rates to be negotiated with participating countries.
12. No one will be forced to leave Gaza, and those who wish to leave will be free to do so and free to return. We will encourage people to stay and offer them the opportunity to build a better Gaza.
13. Hamas and other factions agree to not have any role in the governance of Gaza, directly, indirectly, or in any form. All military, terror, and offensive infrastructure, including tunnels and weapon production facilities, will be destroyed and not rebuilt. There will be a process of demilitarisation of Gaza under the supervision of independent monitors, which will include placing weapons permanently beyond use through an agreed process of decommissioning, and supported by an internationally funded buy back and reintegration programme all verified by the independent monitors. New Gaza will be fully committed to building a prosperous economy and to peaceful coexistence with their neighbours.
14. A guarantee will be provided by regional partners to ensure that Hamas, and the factions, comply with their obligations and that New Gaza poses no threat to its neighbours or its people.
15. The United States will work with Arab and international partners to develop a temporary International Stabilisation Force (ISF) to immediately deploy in Gaza. The ISF will train and provide support to vetted Palestinian police forces in Gaza, and will consult with Jordan and Egypt who have extensive experience in this field. This force will be the long-term internal security solution. The ISF will work with Israel and Egypt to help secure border areas, along with newly trained Palestinian police forces. It is critical to prevent munitions from entering Gaza and to facilitate the rapid and secure flow of goods to rebuild and revitalize Gaza. A deconfliction mechanism will be agreed upon by the parties.
16. Israel will not occupy or annex Gaza. As the ISF establishes control and stability, the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) will withdraw based on standards, milestones, and timeframes linked to demilitarization that will be agreed upon between the IDF, ISF, the guarantors, and the United States, with the objective of a secure Gaza that no longer poses a threat to Israel, Egypt, or its citizens. Practically, the IDF will progressively hand over the Gaza territory it occupies to the ISF according to an agreement they will make with the transitional authority until they are withdrawn completely from Gaza, save for a security perimeter presence that will remain until Gaza is properly secure from any resurgent terror threat.
17. In the event Hamas delays or rejects this proposal, the above, including the scaled-up aid operation, will proceed in the terror-free areas handed over from the IDF to the ISF.
18. An interfaith dialogue process will be established based on the values of tolerance and peaceful co-existence to try and change mindsets and narratives of Palestinians and Israelis by emphasizing the benefits that can be derived from peace.
19. While Gaza re-development advances and when the PA reform programme is faithfully carried out, the conditions may finally be in place for a credible pathway to Palestinian self-determination and statehood, which we recognise as the aspiration of the Palestinian people.
20. The United States will establish a dialogue between Israel and the Palestinians to agree on a political horizon for peaceful and prosperous co-existence.
swirlie · 31-35
@LeopoldBloom
What was signed which led to a ceasefire by Israel only two weeks ago, was a ceasefire agreement, not a peace plan arrangement which began with a cease fire.
Trump was ONLY involved with a ceasefire arrangement to enable aid to get into Gaza and get distributed to the Palestinians where Israel agreed in principle in the short term, but then resumed bombing after 48 hours. Trump did nothing more than temporarily halt the attacks so that aid could get through.
What was signed which led to a ceasefire by Israel only two weeks ago, was a ceasefire agreement, not a peace plan arrangement which began with a cease fire.
Trump was ONLY involved with a ceasefire arrangement to enable aid to get into Gaza and get distributed to the Palestinians where Israel agreed in principle in the short term, but then resumed bombing after 48 hours. Trump did nothing more than temporarily halt the attacks so that aid could get through.
LeopoldBloom · M
@swirlie You're also leaving out how Hamas has been killing Gazans who opposed them, along with sporadically attacking IDF troops. You make it sound like there was a 48 hour pause and the war has resumed at full scale, which is incorrect.
Trump (or more accurately, Rubio and Kushner) were involved with getting the peace plan signed. However, it's a multi-stage process that requires Hamas to fulfill obligations beyond just releasing the living hostages, such as disarming. It also requires the cooperation of whichever countries will comprise the ISF. So if Hamas and the ISF countries stall, then the peace plan won't proceed even if the ceasefire mostly holds.
Trump (or more accurately, Rubio and Kushner) were involved with getting the peace plan signed. However, it's a multi-stage process that requires Hamas to fulfill obligations beyond just releasing the living hostages, such as disarming. It also requires the cooperation of whichever countries will comprise the ISF. So if Hamas and the ISF countries stall, then the peace plan won't proceed even if the ceasefire mostly holds.
swirlie · 31-35
@LeopoldBloom
I'm not leaving anything out, Leo. You started out by saying that Trump came up with a peace plan and then outlined how Trump was not qualified to receive the Nobel Peace Prize from his efforts.
The only thing I've stated repeatedly in this thread is that Trump DID NOT come up with a peace plan AT ALL, but instead came up with a temporary ceasefire arrangement which you keep dodging as you muddle about with irrelevant facts, so don't go putting words into my previous responses which were never put there by me in the first place.
You're also leaving out how Hamas...
I'm not leaving anything out, Leo. You started out by saying that Trump came up with a peace plan and then outlined how Trump was not qualified to receive the Nobel Peace Prize from his efforts.
The only thing I've stated repeatedly in this thread is that Trump DID NOT come up with a peace plan AT ALL, but instead came up with a temporary ceasefire arrangement which you keep dodging as you muddle about with irrelevant facts, so don't go putting words into my previous responses which were never put there by me in the first place.
LeopoldBloom · M
@swirlie You must have missed where I said the peace plan was put together under the Biden administration. All Trump did was get the two sides to sign it--which, historically, isn't enough to qualify for a Nobel prize.
I'm not dodging anything. I get that you despise Trump with the heat of a thousand suns, which I do as well, but that doesn't prevent me from giving him credit he deserves. If you think the peace plan is nothing more than a 48 hour ceasefire after I've literally provided its full text to you, there's not much I can do. I've also acknowledged that acceptance of the plan doesn't mean every point in it will be completed as that will require the parties involved to cooperate.
Like nearly everyone who opines on this conflict and on Israel in general, you seem more comfortable with simple explanations rather than addressing its complexity and nuance.
I'm not dodging anything. I get that you despise Trump with the heat of a thousand suns, which I do as well, but that doesn't prevent me from giving him credit he deserves. If you think the peace plan is nothing more than a 48 hour ceasefire after I've literally provided its full text to you, there's not much I can do. I've also acknowledged that acceptance of the plan doesn't mean every point in it will be completed as that will require the parties involved to cooperate.
Like nearly everyone who opines on this conflict and on Israel in general, you seem more comfortable with simple explanations rather than addressing its complexity and nuance.
swirlie · 31-35
@LeopoldBloom
Your'e making this krap up as you go along again, Leo. Stick with what I said which was in response to what you had ORIGINALLY stated and not what you made up after the fact ..and then go from there. It's really quite simple if you'll only stick with the facts.
Your'e making this krap up as you go along again, Leo. Stick with what I said which was in response to what you had ORIGINALLY stated and not what you made up after the fact ..and then go from there. It's really quite simple if you'll only stick with the facts.
LeopoldBloom · M
@swirlie Please read the text of the Peace Plan I posted and respond to that instead of to something you picked up elsewhere.
Can you provide a citation for your claim that nothing was agreed to other than a 48 hour ceasefire? If that's the case, why did Hamas release the hostages? What happened, someone forgot to lock the door and the hostages just happened to escape right after the ceasefire?
Can you provide a citation for your claim that nothing was agreed to other than a 48 hour ceasefire? If that's the case, why did Hamas release the hostages? What happened, someone forgot to lock the door and the hostages just happened to escape right after the ceasefire?
swirlie · 31-35
@LeopoldBloom
Please stick with what was originally written, Leo. This isn't rocket science, okay?
Please stick with what was originally written, Leo. This isn't rocket science, okay?