Can you separate art from the artist ?

That is to say, can you appreciate art for its own sake, even if its artist is revealed to be despicable personally, for example, someone who was an excellent musician, actor ot producer but committed sexual assault, cheated on partners, was openly anti-Semitic or racist ?

If some ills are more acceptable to you than others, where do you draw the line ?

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uncalled4 · 56-60, M

That's up to the individual. I think it's a dangerously slippery slope, and routed directly to our Cancel Culture pitchfork brigade.

Take someone like Gary Glitter, people aren't going to play his music anymore, and imo rightly so. But how about someone like LA session drummer Jim Gordon? Brilliant player who performed on everything from "You're So Vain" to "These Boots Are Made For Walkin". Wrote the piano tag to Layla. Or wait, cribbed it from his girlfriend Rita Coolidge, with whom he allegedly fought physically. Sadly, Jim ended up in prison for homicide, as his degenerating mental condition caused him to hear voices which told him to end his mother's life.....which he did.

There are plenty of citations of male rock stars having been with underage females back in the day, and plenty of songs written about that subject, too.

What should one do, exactly? 🤔 Begin a neighborhood LP/CD/Cassette burning like the Beatles one after John's "More popular than Jesus" comment? Does one morph into a one-person jury, who shoves people through a myopic shredder of virtue?

My point is that, if one looks far enough, and does not want to be *gasp* hypocritical, you'll definitely want to get rid of all Phil Spector productions, the abovementioned Gary Glitter, R. Kelly for sure. How about TV, film, or albums from Bill Cosby? Watch any Roman Polanski films lately? How about listen to the Beach Boys' 20/20 album? That LP has contributions from THREE convicted murderers on it(Spector, Gordon, and yes Charles f-ing Manson). Beach Boys themselves could be their own subject on not-so-great behavior...if they could stop suing each other. Judee Sill? Made some unbelievably, heart-wrenchingly beautiful music, but had a trainwreck of a life(drugs, armed robbery, prostitution).

Read anything by Allan Ginsburg, who was a well-known member of NAMBLA?

You're gonna need to rent a dumpster, and/or delete/avoid a TON of music, movies, and books.

I'm a more "love the sinner, hate the sin" kind of guy....to a point. I don't have the time to suss out if my fave album's mastering engineer was a Satanist, or misogynistic, or racist, or anti-this or that. Yes, there are some people I will not read or listen to.

I've worked with enough creative people to know that they can be deeply, deeply fucked up. Recently deceased Robert Gordon was both highly complimentary AND terrible to me, personally. I have witnessed both Kevin Spacey and Alec Baldwin give generously of their time to raise much-needed money for charity. I completely loathe Jon Bon Jovi's music, but recognize that he gives back quite a bit(Soul Kitchen). That's a twist on the formula, because although I recognize that Jon is a charitable man, his music is completely unlistenable to me.

So people are shades of grey. Art is what it is. Everyone is going to have a different threshold of what is acceptable.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go sing "Well she was just seventeen..." You know what I mean? :)

bijouxbroussard · F

@uncalled4 So…do you feel the same way about Bill Cosby ? The fact is, he did a lot of good for a lot of people—while he was preying on others. There are some calling what he did "sickness", too—which it definitely was.

uncalled4 · 56-60, M

@bijouxbroussard Which is why I believe that everyone has to make up their own mind. As I mentioned, I saw him live in Atlantic City during the 80s and was very put off by his smarmy attitude and phoned-in performance. Something always rubbed me the wrong way about him, even though I agreed with him on lots of things. When I said I wasn't crazy about Bill, I got accused of probably not liking Christmas by my college professor...in front of the class. That particular guy turned out to be a dink for other reasons, but what that taught me is that celebrity closes many eyes.

bijouxbroussard · F

@uncalled4 I don’t like all celebrities, obviously, but Cosby was important to a lot of us because of what he represented, even more than who he was personally. What we saw was an educated man who encouraged education in our "community". His most popular show depicted a middle class black family.

My parents were both professional people. I enjoyed shows like "Good Times” but growing up I couldn’t relate to them.The fictitious school Cosby referred to as "Hilman" on " A Different World" was a combination of two actual colleges, Spelman (my alma mater) and Morehouse, both HBCUs. They donated a lot to both schools. His wife became president of Spelman in the 80s.

While people from everywhere feel betrayed, because he was greatly admired, it’s especially so with my contemporaries, where he really felt like a parental figure, always encouraging us to behave honorably.
When one considers the hypocrisy it’s staggering. According to a documentary series currently on Prime, he was doing these awful things as far back as when he was on "I Spy".

I can’t help but wonder, if someone had been brave enough to report him when he was still new, he may never have reached the point where he became virtually "untouchable". But perhaps someone did and wasn’t believed, even then. 😞

uncalled4 · 56-60, M

@bijouxbroussard I was shocked when I heard, and it took a while to sink in. Again, I mostly liked what he stood for, but something just felt off about him and now I feel vindicated, not that I wanted to be. I mean, the man lost his son in a horrible fashion and it was awful to hear that news. And I do remember him from back in the day and loved his comedy.

There was that famous Eddie Murphy standup where Bill called him up about how dirty his routines were. Ha. I loved what he told about what Richard Pryor said: "Tell Bill to have a Coke and a smile and stfu!"

bijouxbroussard · F

@uncalled4 Richard Pryor would definitely have felt vindicated (assuming he wasn’t aware, because he passed before it all came out). "I may’ve had a ‘dirty mouth’, but I wasn’t doing all that !" 😳

uncalled4 · 56-60, M

@bijouxbroussard I miss him, George Carlin, Richard Jeni, and Robin Williams.

bijouxbroussard · F

@uncalled4 Those were my favorites, too.

uncalled4 · 56-60, M

@bijouxbroussard There is something so deeply sad about when we lose someone who makes us laugh.

bijouxbroussard · F

@uncalled4 The thing that broke my heart most about Richard Jeni and Robin Williams is that they took their own lives. Jeni could make me laugh even when I disagreed with him—not an easy thing.

uncalled4 · 56-60, M

@bijouxbroussard They both had mental issues, I believe RW had Lewy Body Disease and RJ struggled with bouts of psychotic paranoia. So sad.