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I Am Going to Say Something Controversial

The whole trans washroom issue comes down to this: Men are a danger to women. Some women don't want transwomen using the ladies' room, because they think a transwoman is basically still a man and therefore dangerous. Many transwomen don't feel comfortable using the men's room, because men are dangerous to them. If men would unlearn their violent habits and treat women with basic respect, nobody would care who uses which washroom.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
Oh wow. I so wish I had been aware of this thread last night. I just read through the comments (12 pages of them!!!!!).

First, your premise that "male violence is a problem" is self-evident. Anyone who cannot agree with that statement without hesitation or qualification is ignorant of the facts and, quite frankly, part of the problem.

Second, your derivative conclusion that you, as a woman, have a reasonable fear of being raped when walking alone on the street at night is again self evident. The debate that went on about the legitimacy of your concerns was completely absurd. Three times in my life I have suffered unwanted male intrusions into my personal space and contact with my body (all three were well documented and discussed on EP -- I may at some point re-post those stories).

I began studying martial arts when I was seven years old. Others (parents, etc) thought it would be good for me for a variety of reasons, none of which were self-defense. I ended up loving it and have stuck with it now for 14 years. Today, I would not worry about a 230 pound man walking toward me at night because I know I've put more than a few of them on the ground over the years (I am 5'1" and weigh about 120ish).

For the last several years I've been teaching self-defense at a women's shelter near where I live. The stories I've heard from the women there have been horrifying. Yes, male violence is an issue that our society and culture need to deal with. Denying this simple fact will only make it worse.

Lastly, one of the male participants in the tread brought up a personal story of being the victim of female violence. I'm sorry, I forget which of you it was, but I wanted to comment directly on that. Yes, it happens and I'm so sorry that it happened to you. But if you look at the statistics on a societal level, we really can't talk about female violence in the same breath. Fortunately, I think most police departments here in North America take a gender neutral stance on violence today.

And truly my last comment ... as the former Khaleesi of EP, I am fully in favor of this all female government since I am so tired of my male armies letting me down! ;-)
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
Hearts all around! I am going off line for now. Thanks all for joining the conversation.
VSonMe · 56-60, M
Nobody did care. It wasn't an issue at all until right-wing homophobic assholes decided this is something that constitutes a legal emergency.
having said everything I said earlier .. I must also add this ..

Nothing beats education ..
Educating our young on non violent behaviour, educating tolerance, educating harmony.

When a vast majority is able to heed and practice peace, the bathroom issue would be mute.

But I still want an all woman government xD
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
Hi applegirl! Do you want to join the all-women government of the world? Rowenabrana is Dictator-for-Life!

If you look further back in this thread you'll see we've been batting that idea around :)
Thanks Cinnamon for creating this post, I enjoyed it and hope we can all have more good discussions in future :)
I have no issue with trans men. None at all. I have no problem with trans men using womens bathrooms.
I take issue with men pretending to be trans to gain the advantage of acceptance.
Like the guy who throws on a wig, calls himself trans to gain access to gym dressing rooms. There is no solving this through legislation.Its a trade. To stop the abuse of trans men to begin another avenue of abuse of women and children.
beckyromero · 36-40, F

You are correct.

A female D.C. security guard was recently arrested because she stopped a biological male from going into the women's restroom.

With these new laws springing up everywhere, ten members of a boys' high school football team could legally walk into the women's restroom and no one would legally be able to stop them from entering.
VSonMe · 56-60, M
It seems Republicans spend a great deal of time finding things to be afraid of and are so afraid of everyone and everything unlike themselves, they can only leave the house fully armed.
They bray about how great America is except of course for the last 8 years because of the black man in the White House.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
Quizling, you can't help your size and strength (which are good qualities!) but you can try to understand how smaller and weaker people see the world.

If I see you walking toward me on a dark street late at night, and I don't know you personally, I have _reason_ to fear rape. You don't.
I think we might actually be getting somewhere on this site... We have discussed a difficult and contentious issue, and no-one has fallen out with anyone else, or resorted to name-calling, or AFAIK blocked anyone else.

Well done everyone! Hearts all around xxx
I don't think anyone likes being stereotyped, it's true that the majority of men detest violence the same as women, dismissing men out of the debate and tarring them all with the same brush doesn't help anyone.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
JoyfulSilence I've been the girl who liberated the men's room a few times when there was a long line-up to the ladies' room. Of course a lot depends on the context and situations.
sarabee1995 · 26-30, F
@Cinn ... You don't know me?? Daenerys Stormborn of the House Targaryen, the first of her name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Lady of the Seven Kingdoms and Protector of the Realm, the Unburnt, Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea?

But seriously, have you seen "[b]Game of Thrones[/b]"? I hadn't until last summer when I binge-watched all five season and one of my friends on EP anointed me Khaleesi, which basically means sovereign over all. :-)

So, I will discuss with Rowena what her role will be in administering my government! Hahahahaha ;-)
RumBoy75 · 46-50, M
My objection to this has nothing to do with the washroom topic. The implication that all men are violent and that all men are a danger to women is quite offensive. Some men may be violent, some men may be a danger to women but it is not the majority. By making the statement that Men are a danger it is an implication that all of them are. Same with the previous republican comment... it is not all Republicans, it is a subset. I grant you, you usually cannot tell by looking at someone if they are violent or a danger but you can choose your words
RumBoy75 · 46-50, M
Since the argument boils down to male violence, and I would turn anyone, even my dad or my best friend in if I knew they were being violent toward anyone of any gender.

That question could be turned around the other way. What are you doing to end female violence against men. It happens every day and a lot more than anyone realizes. It is not publicized so no one talks about it. I know it happens, I have been a victim of it on more than one occasion. I do not hold women accountable for the crimes perpetrated by someone of the same gender.
@cinnamon - personally I would much rather they have separate washrooms, than to have the risk of male violence towards women, (risk as in a man pretending to be trans entering a female washroom) ..

It will also wipe out any reason a male predator would have to disguise as a trans.

I don't really see separation as an issue, .. afterall they are not really fully women, despite what they mentally identify themselves to be.

And just a note - I have nothing against trans males.
@Cinnamon - all men? :D .. in that case, would you consider setting up the first all woman government with me? hypothetical of course.
Yup, that's controversial alright...

Batten down the hatches!!! We've got a shitstorm incoming!!! :o
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
Rowenabrana this is exciting! The Republic of Women is hereby proclaimed! Who else is in the government?

Separate trans washrooms would single out trans people - much like the T label on here! But many trans people simply want to blend in as male or female. I think unisex washrooms, which are already normal in some countries, are a better answer. But, there would still be the fear of male violence, which gets back to my main point.
applegirl · 31-35, F
@cinnamon. Wow ! This sounds interesting. Let me check it out then....wasn't aware of this , until now. ♡
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
Rowenabrana yes to the all-women government! You can be dictator for life :D
cherokeepatti · 61-69, F
There is another problem that I have with this issue and haven't heard the media address it...I wouldn't put it past a pedophile to dress like a woman if he wanted to lurk around the public restaurants and watch for a young teen girl going in by herself in order to snatch her or do harm...honestly wouldn't put it past someone to do that.
@Cin - Ahh, Viktor Quisling rises from the grave to bite me on the ass again, lol

I just happen to like quizzes, riddle, puzzles, enigma, mysteries etc etc, and I thought QuizKing or Quizmaster were a little ostentatious, lol.

Hopefully I can do my bit to reclaim the word for the forces of good! :D
build a third wash room... sorted
naughtybutnice · 18-21, F
do u think it would be safe to let them in if they had fully changed and had their "bits" removed? but how would we know, I guess. I suppose we need 3 or 4 kinds of restrooms. for male, female, trans men and trans women??
VSonMe · 56-60, M
well, it would have to be at least 4 different bathrooms:

Cisgender male
Cisgender Female
Something else
Purple people

I can't stand stereotypes though - they are all terrorists.
@cinnamon - great, let's do it ! :) btw, why don't they just have a separate washroom for trans? If there is fear of men disguising as trans, a separate washroom would solve that.
bighappysmiles · 22-25, F
We only need one bathroom. Everybody just hides in a stall anyway. Seriously, nobody looks around and checks out the other people in the bathroom. At least not in any I've ever been in.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
MrLoverlyDay what I'm saying is, the problem is with men, who all need to make the sacrifice of shutting off their own violence and entitlement.
Jonathan · 31-35, M
Do you think that such a perception of all Muslims is bigotry? If so, the same applies to a similar perception of all men.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
VSonMe the improbability of success is no excuse for lack of effort in a good cause.

Gee, that sounds like somebody famous said it!
Simply, all ANY man can do is be the best man that he can be. Kind, considerate, thoughtful etc etc. If he has children he should educate them to be the same way.

Which surprise surprise, is what a majority of people already do! But it doesn't always work...

I know rape and violence is wrong, you all know rape and violence is wrong, and yup, the violent rapists ALSO know that rape and violence are wrong. The difference is, they just don't care, and do it anyway...
sereneblessings · 31-35, F
I have a suggestion: Let's bio-engineer humanity to be a race of hermaphrodites. Problem solved. And if you think that's silly it's no more ludicrous than the fact that after no less than 200,000 thousand years of existence on Earth man still doesn't have proper consensus on how to use the public restroom. If we can't even get together on a protocol on how and where to pee then we're truly truly hopeless.
cherokeepatti · 61-69, F
BigHappySmiles: There have been men caught using their cameras up under stalls to photograph women using the restroom...don't think it won't happen more if this law is passed....from what I read on EP these predators will use anything they can think of to violate someone's boundaries, they were very "creative" at posting stories of how they did things that were against the law.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
VSonMe well it's high profile on SW right now :D best I can do for the moment :)
Jonathan · 31-35, M
My advice is to carry a gun, but that just opens the door to more bickering.
Blonde · 31-35, F
Jonathan. I didnt disagree. I agree it's a good question.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@laotzu as I explained earlier in the thread, it's not that I think all men are violent, but male violence is a huge problem. And yes, nothing anyone has said about this here on this thread or in anything else I've seen changes my mind about that point. Really, who cares who's in which washroom, if it weren't for justified fears of abusive men?
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
Sarabee! Yay! Thank you for these well-founded interesting comments! I would enjoy reading them even if you didn't agree with me :)
I didn't realize you were Khaleesi [whatever that is :)] of EP! So honoured to know you, your Exaltedness! :) Do talk with Rowenabrana about your role in the Women's Government of the World!
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
@bighappysmiles thanks for your perspective!
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
ballen, you know how every time some crazy extremist who happens to be Muslim blows somebody up, everybody's like, "why aren't all the supposedly moderate, ordinary Muslims denouncing this? If they don't speak out, it seems like they agree with the terrorists!"

Well that is how I feel about men and male violence.
@Cin - No, I wasn't suggesting the use of violence, I was showing that the use of violence to 'fight' violence is ultimately self-defeating as all that happens is that violence is propagated...

My second suggestion of each man trying to just be as best as he can is the closest there can be to a problem that has NO solution...
@Quiz - you know you want it too :p ahahaha
Blonde · 31-35, F
...HMMMMM....Why can't we all just get along?
VioletRayne · 31-35, F
Omg you said the exact same thing I said. There was an incident in my town where a trans woman who was still attracted to women assaulted a woman in the ladies room. My entire city is like up in arms about the new laws passing to allow trans women to use ladies rooms.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
TwiddlerOfThumbs do you know of actual cases like that?
If there are some, again, we are looking at a problem with men's behaviour toward women. The trans question has been in the news when what should be, is the male violence issue.
@Cin - Oh I get it!! This is the old, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem!

So in essence, non-violent men should tackle violent men to stop them being violent?

And how will that work exactly? Use of violence?
bighappysmiles · 22-25, F
I think you're generalizing men here, it's kinda unfair. Asshole-dom is not a male condition, it's a human condition and comes in both sexes. As far as the whole bathroom controversy goes it's a non issue. nobody even seems to know where it came from.
Cinnamon · 31-35, F
Quiz you are bringing up a violent solution (not unlike Jonathan's guns). I'm not. Is this because you're a man? In any case I'm sure you can think of ways to counter male violence that don't involve more violence.

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