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I Am For Gun Control

Bad Choice By The Republicans Yet Again.... US lawmakers will ditch a plan to ban assault weapons, all but killing off a key part of a gun control campaign prompted by a recent school massacre.

Democratic Senator Dianne Feinstein said her proposal would be left out of the firearms control bill.

Democratic Senate leader Harry Reid made the decision, saying the proposal could not get enough votes.

An assault-type weapon was used in the December massacre that killed 26 at a primary school in Newtown, Connecticut.

The shooting shocked the US and revived efforts in Washington DC to prohibit such firearms.

But while polls show most Americans back an assault weapon ban, influential pro-gun lobby groups such as the National Rifle Association have pressed lawmakers to oppose such a move.
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BizSuitStacy
There are other polls showing the majority of Americans do not support the Assault Weapons Ban. It depends a lot on who is conducting the poll, the kinds of questions asked and when the poll is taken.

Often times these polls are taken shortly after a tragic mass killing, often leading to an emotional response. If the same poll is taken after a lengthy period of time, and the emotions of the tragedy have waned, the complexion of the poll changes.

I have two big issues I have with the Assault Weapons Ban. First off, we tried this once before between 1994 and 2003. It did not have a material effect on gun violence in this country. What makes us believe this time it will be different.

The other issue, and this is far more significant, assault weapons are used in about 0.6% of gun murders. Hand guns account for 90% of gun murders. That's not to say I believe we should eliminate hand guns, but if you want to blame the weapon...
Mikemcneil · 61-69, M
The blame doesn\'t lie with the weapon, it lies with the availability of weapons. There is absolutely no good reason for assault rifles to be legally owned by any individual. Care to state your reasons why it\'s a good thing to have them in circulation?
BizSuitStacy
Availability? You think THAT is the issue? Did you not read what I wrote above? How is their availability problematic, when they are rarely used in crimes?



It\'s not my responsibility to prove why they should be legal for an individual to own. They already are. The burden of proof lies up those who wish to ban them. So I ask you, why should they be taken out of circulation? I\'ve yet to hear a valid reason to ban them. Every single argument I\'ve ever heard with respect to banning assault weapons is emotional, like \"There is absolutely no good reason for assault rifles to be legally owned by any individual.\" That isn\'t even argument.

I\'ve written a rather long, and detailed piece here on EP which will address your question to me in extensive details. It\'s chock full of facts that are easily verified.

http://www.experienceproject.com/stories/Believe-In-The-2nd-Amendment/2954615#comment_10832229

And BTW - there are some VERY GOOD reasons for people to own assault weapons. They are excellent home defense weapons, particularly for women (provided you use frangible rounds), they are fun to shoot, and contrary to popular belief, they are also excellent for hunting.
Mikemcneil · 61-69, M
I suggest we agree to disagree. Your last sentence says everything I need to know(and dislike) about you.
EvesHarvest
I guess they are good for hunting if you are a lousy shot.

If we can prevent someone who\'s gone off the deep end from being able to efficiently slaughter as many people as possible before they shoot themselves or are stopped, why wouldn\'t we? Most gun owners agree with universal background checks. I imagine a lot of them would be for a ban on assault rifles. They are fun to shoot? What kind of an argument is that? Some people find it fun to go 100 miles an hour, that doesn\'t men we should compromise everyone\'s safety for them to do so.
BizSuitStacy
@EvesHarvest:

Let\'s address your points one at a time.

\"I guess they are good for hunting if you are a lousy shot.\" Are you implying that assault weapons are inherently more accurate than other types of guns used for hunting? Probably not. I\'ll stick my neck out and take an educated guess you are referring to the number of rounds an assault weapon can hold. Classic gun grabber rationale...it stirs up visions of Rambo with an M2, turning poor little Bambi into venison sausage under a hail of machine gun fire. Reality check Eves: assault weapons are semi-automatic, not fully automatic machine guns. LOTS of hunting rifles that would not fall into the assault weapon category are semi-auto, and have magazines capable of carrying multiple rounds. Are you suggesting that ALL semi-automatic weapons should be banned from hunting? BTW - if the shooter fires and misses - it really doesn\'t matter how many rounds are in the magazine. Gunfire is loud. If you miss the target, it tends to become frightened, and it runs away. Your implication that an assault weapon gives the hunter some sort of unfair advantage is ludicrous.

\"If we can prevent someone who\'s gone off the deep end from being able to efficiently slaughter as many people as possible before they shoot themselves or are stopped, why wouldn\'t we?\" Once again, the assault weapon is no more lethal than any other semi-automatic weapon. Remember the horror of Columbine. Eric Harris, was armed with a ban compliant Hi-Point 995. He brought 13 of the ten round magazines and fired 96 rounds before he killed himself. And this event occurred during the Assault Weapon\'s ban between 1994 and 2003. Additionally, Seung-Hui Cho again showed the futility of regulating magazine capacity during the 2007 Virginia Tech massacre. He carried nineteen ten- and fifteen-round magazines in his backpack. He used 17 magazines, firing off close to 170 rounds (all ten round compliant) before killing himself. Per Dianne Feinstein\'s own data, since 2004, after the Assault Weapon\'s ban was lifted, a total of 385 people have been murdered. That comes out to less than 50 people per year. 385 people is not insignificant. But it\'s a clear indication that the problem is not with the assault weapon. Again, assault weapons are no more lethal than any other semi-automatic weapon.

Additionally, we had an assault weapon\'s ban in place for 10 years. It did not even begin to reduce gun related homicides. If it didn\'t work previously, why would it work now? Clue: think about Einstein\'s definition of insanity.

\"Most gun owners agree with universal background checks. I imagine a lot of them would be for a ban on assault rifles.\" Really? That\'s pure speculation. But here is an idea. Let\'s put this to a public vote. Let\'s allow the voters of America to cast their ballot either for or against an assault weapon\'s ban. But we don\'t do this. Instead we have politicians running around, beating their chests as Andrew Cuomo did screaming about how you don\'t need 10 rounds to kill a deer. Emotional, yes. Logical? Not even slightly. Second point...you use the term Assault Rifle. Naughty, naughty! We are talking about Assault Weapons, not Assault Rifles. I know it\'s a minor slip - but there is a significant difference. The term Assault Weapon was created in 1989 by anti-gun groups to differentiate between fully automatic, military weapons and the semi-automatic weapons that look similar.

\"They are fun to shoot? What kind of an argument is that? \" It\'s a far better argument in favor of keeping assault weapons legal, than any I\'ve heard for making them illegal. Some people enjoy target shooting. It\'s a legitimate sport. Competition shooters use assault weapons all the time.

\"Some people find it fun to go 100 miles an hour, that doesn\'t men we should compromise everyone\'s safety for them to do so.\" So, by your logic here - are you suggesting we should also ban any car that goes over 100 mph? Ironically, 2nd Amendment supporters often reference the fact that more people die in car crashes than are killed by guns. And it\'s the gun grabbers who always say, \"that\'s a stupid argument.\"

I agree - cars are very dangerous if used irresponsibly. Yet no one is suggesting we ban them. Guns are also extremely dangerous when used irresponsibly. So what is your point?

Since these evil assault weapons are such efficient killers, let me ask you something:
The Ruger company makes a weapon called the Mini-14. It is a .223 caliber carbine rifle (a popular caliber with AR-15 style rifles). There are currently four versions of this rifle. One version is called the Ranch Rifle, which does not fit the definition of an assault weapon (provided it\'s fitted with a magazine with a capacity of 10 rounds or less). There is another version of this same rifle, called the Tactical Rifle which would be classified as an assault weapon because it has a collapsable stock, pistol grip, flash suppressor, and possibly some other features. You could also fit this weapon with the same magazine of 10 rounds or less. Both guns are equally lethal, yet the Tactical Rifle would be banned, while the Ranch Rifle would not. Why is that?

My biggest issue is that the people who want to ban assault weapons are not being honest. The REAL reason you want these weapons banned is because they look scary. They look more like military style weapons, and therefore, they must be more dangerous than standard old hunting rifles, etc. The problem is, you cannot provide a shred of evidence or data to support such a claim.

Waiting patiently for an answer...
BizSuitStacy
@mikemcneil. Agree to disagree? Of course. You dislike me? I\'m so hurt. I don\'t dislike you.
Mikemcneil · 61-69, M
You are an idiot...that\'s why I dislike you. Sarcasm doesn\'t come across as well as pseudo facts though, does it.
BizSuitStacy
Ahhh...your progressive colors are shining through. Name calling is the progressive\'s method of coping when they get their ass handed to them in a debate. Pseudo facts? I love it. Another progressive invented term...just like assault weapon.

I\'ve provided facts and references that have the data to back them up. You still have yet to provide a shred of evidence or data supporting your claims. And it\'s obvious you can\'t. This is why you have to resort to childishness activities such as name calling. You can\'t even debate this.
EvesHarvest
We do agree on one thing. I\'d love to see both a universal background check and and a ban on high-capacity magazine clips put to popular vote.
EvesHarvest
http://www.factcheck.org/2013/02/did-the-1994-assault-weapons-ban-work/

I think this is pretty even-handed in looking at the claims on both sides regarding the assault weapons ban.
BizSuitStacy
Thank you for posting this, and I hope everyone interested in the Assault Weapons\' debate reads the content of the link, plus any of its other references. It supports my position well. It makes two critical points. 1) Assault weapons are rarely used in crimes. 2) The effectiveness of the original assault weapons ban was inconclusive. We all want to see a definitive \"yes\" or \"no\" response when determining if the ban effectively reduced gun crime. Inconclusiveness means the ban could not have been very effective.

It even goes into a lot more detail, stating that the \"gun ban provision targets a relatively small number of weapons based on outward features or accessories that have little to do with the weapons’ operation. Removing some or all of these features is sufficient to make the weapons legal. In other respects (e.g., type of firing mechanism, ammunition fired, and the ability to accept a detachable magazine), AWs do not differ from other legal semiautomatic weapons.\" There is nothing that makes the assault weapon any more dangerous than other semi-automatic weapon. It\'s the cosmetic features to which that ban advocates object. On other words, they look scary, and because they look scary, they are more attractive to criminals. Brilliant! Except everyone keeps forgetting the first point - THEY ARE RARELY USED IN CRIMES. I love it when someone tries to solve a problem that doesn\'t exist.

Lastly is the point about LCMs (large capacity magazines). It makes for a better ban argument than the cosmetic features that preclude some of the guns, but not by much. Virtually any semi-automatic weapon capable of accepting a \"clip\" is also capable of accepting a high capacity magazine. But let\'s just say all high capacity magazines over 10 rounds are banned and removed from the face of the earth. Would that stop of mass shooter? Of course not. We know that Eric Harris (Columbine killer) used a ban compliant High Point 995. He brought with him 13, ten round magazines full of ammo and fired off 96 round before turning the gun on himself. And remember, this event occurred during the Assault Weapons Ban between 1994 and 2003. We also know that Seung-Hui Cho used 17, ten round compliant magazines in his hand gun when he opened fire at Virginia Tech in 2007. He fired nearly 170 rounds before killing himself.

The problem with the LCW argument is logistics. If and I take two weapons to the range...yours is fitted with one, 30 round magazine, and mine has three, 10 round magazines, who empties their gun first, and by how much? OK - if we both shoot at the same rate, you will finish about 4 seconds before me. It takes me less than 2 seconds to expel one magazine, load a new one, and get back to shooting. The fact that Dianne Feinstein would have the audacity to suggest a good Samaritan could jump the shooter while changing magazines. How stupid does she think people are? That\'s an extremely dangerous suggestion. Anyhow, limiting magazine capacity is not going to slow down a mass murderer.
EvesHarvest
You cherry-picked out of that article to support your argument BSS!
BizSuitStacy
Cherry-picked? What key element of data is missing? Please tell us. The paper states multiple times, assault weapons are rarely used in crimes. They also state that the effectiveness of the Assault weapon\'s ban is unknown. Nothing drives a point home like a \"definite maybe!\"

Attempting to defeat a null hypothesis requires some concrete evidence to back it up - otherwise the opposite outcome is achieved. If you cannot prove it was effective, it therefore was ineffective. And really, if truly had been effective, the data would obviously show it. BTW - since the assault weapons\' ban expired in 2003, violent gun crime, including homicide is down from previous years. This is a downward trend that began prior to the assault weapons\' ban and has continued beyond it. The answer lies not with banning guns. The answer lies within understanding why we live in such a violent society.
EvesHarvest
Koper, Jan. 14: The grandfathering provisions in the law meant that the effects of the law would occur only very gradually over time. It seems that those effects were still unfolding when the ban was lifted, and indeed they may not have been fully realized for several more years into the future even if the ban had been extended in 2004.

The evidence is too limited for any firm projections, but it does suggest that long term restrictions on these guns and magazines could potentially produce at least a small reduction in shootings.

Koper concluded by saying that “a new ban on large capacity magazines and assault weapons would certainly not be a panacea for gun crime, but it may help to prevent further spread of particularly dangerous weaponry and eventually bring small reductions in some of the most serious and costly gun crimes.”
That kind of guarded language may not make for great sound bites for either side in the gun debate, but it more accurately reflects Koper’s findings and conclusion.

This is differant than your conclusion, BSS.
BizSuitStacy
My conclusion is that this article doesn\'t prove that the assault weapons ban from 1994 - 2003 was effective. Where does Koper prove anything with references to such bold statements as \"may help reduce\" and \"a small reduction in shootings\"? They don\'t even begin to define what effective is, and come up with any sort of quantitative measure as what it should be.

I agree with the point above, the evidence is too limited. And that\'s because the weapons are rarely used in crimes.

Think about how this would actually unfold if assault weapons were banned again. Based on current projections from FBI statistics, and the logic Koper applies, maybe, about 50 people out of about 8500 who will be murdered with guns, won\'t be killed by an assault weapon. That doesn\'t mean they won\'t be murdered with a gun, just not with an assault weapon.

Project that out. That really doesn\'t do much reduce gun crime. Then there will be more grumbling on the left, blaming large capacity magazines available for non-assault weapons. But wait, no one can have a 30 round clip anymore. What\'s the problem. Oh...it\'s now the 10 round clips. We need to ban those too, like they did in NY. Still not getting the murder rate down low enough...let\'s ban all semi-automatic weapons, and anything with an insertable magazine. The only thing allowed will be allowed are revolvers, shotguns, and bolt action rifles. Probably half of the gun murders in America are committed with revolvers and shotguns. Where does the insanity around banning guns end? With a complete revocation of the 2nd Amendment?

If gun control laws are so great, why do we have so many of them? If gun control works so well, why do cities such as Chicago, New Orleans, Wash DC - places with the strictest gun laws also have the highest gun crime rate?

Honestly, I feel sometimes like no one ever does any root cause analysis on the issue of homicide in this country. And that\'s not just with guns - thousand of people are murdered with knives, blunt objects, strangulation, suffocation, and arson - and in each of the cases I\'ve just listed, more people are killed annually with those objects than are killed with assault weapons.

It\'s a cultural issue, and it needs a cultural solution. We\'ve already learned that trying to take away the guns will not reduce the violence.