A world beyond Capitalism

Every day, capitalism proves that it is absolutely indifferent to human flourishing, or life, and therefore it really shouldn’t be a surprise that so many of the grotesque and monstrous phenomena of our society — inequality, racism, misogyny, imperialism, ecological catastrophe, mass extinction, mass unnecessary death — are inextricable from capitalism.

The demand for a system that prioritizes human need over profit is a demand for the end of capitalism. We can debate what that might look like, but if we take seriously the idea that the only way to get to a world fit to live in is to get beyond capitalism, we have to move beyond the “common sense” — which is to say, the deadening propaganda — that it is “obviously” impossible to have anything other than capitalism.

Marx and Engels Communist Manifesto’s unremitting insistence on the dynamics of class history that got us here, and its ruthless denaturalizing and questioning of supposedly eternal truths, all in the service of liberation, is profoundly important.

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Gloomy · F

@pianoplayingsteve

we create and thrive at the level of the individual. Everything great came from an individual mind.
In any system, a small number will be hyper productive and intelligent and do a lot of the work and become very successful and lift the group up as a whole, whilst a great number of people dont have such great ability and so they don't produce much, and so also do not bring the group up as a whole.

Textbook libertarian argument. Great ideas come from individuals yes but that doesn't mean that those with the idea are above, more intelligent od hard working than those who put these ideas into practice. What you call bringing the group up I call condescending hierarchies. Ideas can't be put into practice without hard workers and without imaginative people there won't be any new ideas. There is an interdependance that does not justify you looking down on people branding them as less productive or to have less great abillities. People like Bezos, are those the great productive people you worship?

The money redistributed to them then goes to drugs, overeating etc ie producing nothing, money which if it was allowed to stay in the hands of the productive, could have produced even more for society.

A simplification and an attack against people struggling framed as an argument against redistribution and government aid. You have proven to be a libertarian, an ideology I have zero respect for. I might even find more common ground with conservatives.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@Gloomy Thank you for your thought out response.

Giving my argument a label does not mean anything to me. I do not see issues in terms of labels, in terms of left or right, conservative or libertarian etc. I see things that make sense to me and some that don't, and some of what I believe to be right can be found toward the left of politics, others toward the right. I will not put your beliefs into some sort of label that I already have a judgment of, you are your own person, your ideas are your own.

"People like Bezos, are those the great productive people you worship?". I do not worship any person, or thing. I have constantly (though not in this exchange) pushed for the fact that no one person, group of ideology has all the answers. No one person, group or ideology is 100% good or 100% evil. I've read a fair few books by rags to riches people, in particular the classics where it just gets down to business like "The Richest Man in Babylon". There are just a few simple concepts, really. Simply reading life stories by people like Bezos, nevermind worshipping them, seems a waste of time, to me. Rather, I create a clear goal of where I want to be, I make sure that every day I compare myself to who I was yesterday, rather than who someone else is today, and advance toward that goal. 'll read the specifics on how to do what I need to do, like learning how to file tax returns, how to best advertise services etc and just go for it, I couldn't care less for Bezos. And I'm glad capitalism gives me the freedom to pursue that.

"What you call bringing the group up I call condescending hierarchies" is that in reference to my comment about voluntary socialism within a small group?

"A simplification and an attack against people struggling framed as an argument against redistribution and government aid. ", Then, I'd have to be attacking myself. I have a physical disability which in turn led to mental illness and I was put in a half way home for other adults with mental health issues. We were all given the same amount of welfare money. I had a neighbour. We were close friends, I never judged him. He spent his money on drugs, overeating expensive takeout food, and pre-ordering videogames at ridiculous prices. He'd just sit on his ass eating and smoking and got morbidly obese. I tried to eat as cheaply as possible, I'd wait until said videogame was cheap before buying it, and a portion of my welfare went toward private piano lessons I volunteered with an ambulance service. He would quite literally call me weird, daft, stupid whenever i espoused the most basic of money saving or investing ideas. As a result of our two choices, I was able to nicely decorate my apartment in which I was able to teach piano at a rate that meant I didn't have to work for many hours but still earnt way above minimum wage and was also offered a middle class job as a result of my ambulance volunteering. Said friend had an apartment like a cave and managed to get a minimum wage job at the very half way home we shared that he was given simply because they liked him. He continued to be stupid with his money, for example he'd be sat in his living room with a cigarette, to remove the fumes he'd have a window open, this would make the room cold but rather than a one off payment for a jumper he'd put the central heating on, so he'd be sat there with an open window with the heating on. Meanwhile I'd be looking into heat preserving ideas for my apartment, I'd be reusing postage envelopes etc. Is there something wrong, or judgmental in my thought that I should not have to redistribute my excess resources to him, which I built up through sacrifice and hard work? Those are the people I refer to.

PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M

@Gloomy Libertarians also seem to forget that without an army of workers even if you accept their "great men" theory without workers their visionary is just a random guy scribbling cool ideas on a napkin.

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow here again we see the the right "libertarian" to Alt-Right pipeline.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@basilfawlty89 You see many alt righters in a mix race marriage, with a congenital disability and a liking of international capitalism?

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

@pianoplayingsteve well you lot have your token figures. Like Milo Yankingoffkidsalot. You can't hide your affiliation, man. You doubled down on it on Miram's thread yesterday.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@basilfawlty89 I don't have, a "lot", man. The world isn't this childish black and white good guys vs bad guys chuck everyone into a label where they all think the same fairytale.

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

@pianoplayingsteve except you proved yourself to have far right sympathies and that you're Antisemitic.

Gloomy · F

@pianoplayingsteve labels are defined by certain points of view. You just happen to share the same beliefs as libertarians and antisemites.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@basilfawlty89 yeah I agree with some things that are traditionally right, and other things that are traditionally left. I dont just put all my views into one box.

basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M

@pianoplayingsteve the Nazis also practiced syncretism and claimed to be beyond left and right. Doesn't change that they were far right.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@basilfawlty89 They were far right socially, and centre left economically.

Not subscribing to "All my views have to line up with so and so label and every other view belongs with the bad guy team" is simply being a thinking person.

BohemianBoo · M

@pianoplayingsteve The Nazis were Capitalists. So pretty much centrist economically.

Gloomy · F

@pianoplayingsteve See you just put labels on the Nazis and now considering that most your takes are far right socially and even economically you do fit into the right wing label.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@BohemianBoo Left enough to make them centre left economically. There was a lot of wealth distribution in their programs and state ownership of enterprises.

pianoplayingsteve · 31-35, M

@Gloomy I put labels onto the actions of a past group, based on what they did, for the sake of being able to have a discussion of their policies. However, I'm not going to give you -someone in the here and now with the sentience to update your views- a label and judge you on that label.

BohemianBoo · M

@pianoplayingsteve Not really. Almost every enterprise was privately owned. And even the companies that weren't private in the western sense were still owned privately in that the people didn't have democratic control.

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