Vive' Marie LePen

Yes the media do their work reminding people of:
The history of this far-right party (including the financial scandals)
The platform of this party.
French people happen to be largely pro-European, Marine lePen made a big mistake there. The EU is not a 'Liberal' project.
They are not so homophobe though, some of their leaders are actually openly gay.

Macron is what I would call a Blairite, which is not good, but is still a lesser evil to a right wing nationalist.

I want Hamon to win but Mechelen has messed up his chances.

@EarthlingWise: @Burnley123:

You two are wasting your time typing out this nonsense. LePen wins 😀✅

@Burnley123: LePen is more socialist than Macron.
I thought the left was focused on economics than on anything else
Those days are gone, it seems, now it is about identity politics and thirdworldism.

@Burnley123:

You're over your head on this one Burnsie lol.

@EarthlingWise: Homophobe was a joke, since they are being called every -ist and -phobe.

@Cierzo: @Burnley123:

These jokers didn't have a clue what they are taking about. They skimmed the English version of LeMonde and confused themselves.

😂

@Cierzo:

They've resorted to name calling since once again facts escape them.

@Jackjjacksonjr: I certainly have a clue of what I'm talking about, I don't have to read the French version of le Monde to know the basic history of the F.N. And I'm not the only one to remember. In a recent (yesterday) poll, 58 % of the French population declared they view the FN as dangerous and anti-democratic.
It used to be an openly fascist party (when Daddy founded it and ruled over it). Now his estranged daughter changed the image of Daddy's pro-colonialist anti-Semitic movement, changing the fascist logo into a rose. As every populist party on earth , they are now pretending to defend the working class.

@Cierzo: [quote] LePen is more socialist than Macron.[/quote]

She leans centre-left on economics and Macron leans centre-right. Though with no party he will not be able to change much anyway. Macron is classic liberal and is similar to the right of the Labour Party, who are creating problems for Jeremy Corbyn. Believe me I am not a fan but I have sound reasons for applying the lesser-evil distinction to him.

[quote]I thought the left was focused on economics than on anything else
Those days are gone, it seems, now it is about identity politics and thirdworldism.[/quote]

As you know economics and class are the primary issues for me, however 'identity politics' does indeed matter. I'm sure you understand this as you do see culture as [i]the [/i] major determining factor; hence why you support someone with right wing economics (Trump) as well as Le Pen's centre left welfarisms.

For me you believe in equality or you don't. I would see a blatant contradiction in supporting social democracy [i]only [/i]for white native people. Muslims and other minorities (including immigrants) are also human beings. The political right talk of the 'white working class' as a distinct group and emphasise that it has been abandoned by the liberal left. I think this is true, but its also true that the non-white working class is at least equally marginalised by global neo-liberalism.

In addition, I agree with Earthling Wise above about the FN's concrete fascist history (not NAZI but fascist) and it is clear what direction they would ultimately take France if able to seize power. Following from this, the left have concrete strategic reasons to oppose the far-right because they have a history of violence and oppression against activists and trade unionists. This probably wouldn't happen in France at the moment but I wouldn't be in the least surprised if Le Pen introduced union restrictions or laws against protest.

Perhaps Le Pen has moderated the FNs substance as well as the message and her economic policies are much better than those of Trump. However, I am not prepared to divide working class people on priority of interest (or want Le Pen to divide them). If I was a French leftist I would also not want risk what a hard-right nationalist government could potentially do to our structures.

@Jackjjacksonjr: [quote]You're over your head on this one Burnsie lol.[/quote]

I respect Cierzo's intelligence Jackson and he's probably the smartest right winger on the site but I do know what I'm talking about on this. 😜

@Burnley123: I understand your point of view. You are a democratic leftist, in that order, and you have concerns about not-democratic attitudes on the FN side.

I think,however, that the adjective 'fascist' is too overused, or better said, misused. I understand that concern about Marine's father Jean-Marie, and his anti-semitic attitudes. However,he is not in the party any more and his relationship with Marine is simply not existent

This should be the topic for another question,but since today we seem to have even more evidence that CIA has been widely monitorising people, shouldn't the word 'fascist' be more fairly applied to those governments who have tolerated such behaviour?

@Cierzo: In terms of the CIA and Trump, I think they are both lying TBH. Yes though, I would love to talk about these issues on some other question. Message me if you do.

@Burnley123: Actually I purposefully used the term Nazi as the party was initially very close to collaborationist groups.

@EarthlingWise: That is a fair point. There is crossover between Le Pen and fascism, as there is between fascism and Nazism.

It is a sliding scale really and I certainly call Jean-Claude Le Pen a fascist. Some NF precursor groups were undoubtedly NAZI too.

@EarthlingWise: @Burnley123:

The key word is "was". There is no reason to inaccurately smear Ms LePen.

@Jackjjacksonjr: It's not about smearing. Defending them or MrTrump while overlooking their actual records and their total lack of perspective is irresponsible and naive.

@Jackjjacksonjr: I'm not being inaccurate at all and I don't think Earthlingwise is. Read up on the history of the NF.

A case can be made either way for MLP being a fascist but her father was/is a classic case. The NF has origins from different far-right groups, some of which were NAZI collaborators (and sympathisers) of Vichey France.
The history matters because it does reflect on the present.

@Burnley123:

How does that define Ms LePen's current positions in any way? Sounds like a typical liberal drive by smear.

@Jackjjacksonjr:

[quote]How does that define Ms LePen's current positions in any way?[/quote]

Does the history of America reflect how American values are now? Yes. It refelcts Marine Le Pen's personal upbringing and the origins of her party's political ideology.

This is not me saying Marine Le Pen is a NAZI. Fascism is authoritarian nationalism, whereas Nazism was explicitly racist and ended with genocide. There is also difference (but overlap) between Trump and Mussolini's brand of fascism. I posted a question on this and wrote about it in detail. Cierzo (who knows what he is talking about) admires Trump, Le Pen and Mussolini.

[quote]a typical liberal drive by smear.[/quote]

Its more inaccurate to call me a liberal.

@EarthlingWise: Haha I almost spit out my drink:

[quote]It's not about smearing. Defending them or MrTrump while overlooking their actual records and their total lack of perspective is irresponsible and naive.[/quote]

Curious though Democrats defend Mrs. Clinton's child rape case in which she said he was guilty without a doubt but her job was to defend and she successfully got him off. So this child now grew up having no sense of justice and went through horrible PTSD and not being able to have children and not only has to listen to self righteous stuck up liberals defend Hillary but also now knows how she close to being president she got.

How rude and sadistic is that? 😆

@Burnley123:

You're falsely labeling Ms LePen by saying because others were so and so she must be too. Intellectual laziness.

@Jackjjacksonjr: Not the way I function. I have listened to her many times, have you?

@satanburger: When did I mention Mrs Clinton? Stick to the subject if you can.

@Jackjjacksonjr: If you want to know more the FN and how it is still connected to Nazi movements, do some research about Frédéric Chatillon.