"If I lived in Havana and I was in government, I'd be concerned" - Marco Rubio
Guess if Canada can't be the "51st State," Cuba will be?
36-40, F
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hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
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hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@beckyromero Yeah I read the book. Loved that line. Ike had a lot of things going for him and he had a few shortcomings as well. He didn't get to where he was in WWII by being brash and showy. Yes he had a big ego but he was the only general the US had that could keep Patton and Monty from killing each other.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@hippyjoe1955
FDR should have sent Gen. Marshall to Britain to oversee Overlord. He could have still kept the title as Chief of Staff of the Army. But Roosevelt liked to keep his closest and most trusted advisers nearby. Marshall could have handled Patton and Monty. And he would have had a bit more gravitas in dealing with Churchill than Ike had. He kept advising FDR that a cross channel invasion was the quickest way to bring about the defeat of Germany.
Admiral William Leahy, Roosevelt's Chief of Staff of the Army and Navy, got the least fanfare of FDR's top advisors but may have been the most powerful and influential of them, especially as FDR's heath worsened in 1944.
FDR should have sent Gen. Marshall to Britain to oversee Overlord. He could have still kept the title as Chief of Staff of the Army. But Roosevelt liked to keep his closest and most trusted advisers nearby. Marshall could have handled Patton and Monty. And he would have had a bit more gravitas in dealing with Churchill than Ike had. He kept advising FDR that a cross channel invasion was the quickest way to bring about the defeat of Germany.
Admiral William Leahy, Roosevelt's Chief of Staff of the Army and Navy, got the least fanfare of FDR's top advisors but may have been the most powerful and influential of them, especially as FDR's heath worsened in 1944.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@beckyromero I always thought that Truman made Marshal the hero we think he was. In my mind Leahy was in charge of the war against Japan and Marshal was the one in charge of the war in Europe. Sadly the US has completely squandered the immense good will the Marshal Plan generated.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@hippyjoe1955
Phillips Payson O'Brien's biography of Leahy is titled, "The Second Most Powerful Man in the World."
Roosevelt had sent Leahy over to Europe as the Ambassador to Vichy France so as to help moderate any collaboration between the French and the Germans:
"We are confronting an increasingly serious situation in France because of the possibility that one element of the French government might persuade Marshal Pétain to enter into agreements with Germany which will facilitate the efforts of the Axis Powers against Great Britain and there is even the possibility that France may actually engage in a war against Great Britain.... We need in France at this time an ambassador who gain gain the confidence of Marshal Petain..."
- President Roosevelt, telegram to Admiral William Leahy, November 17, 1940
In late 1941 as U.S.-Japanese relations worsened, H. Freeman Matthews (his chargé d'affaires) asked Leahy what the Japanese might do. Leahy replied, "I would not be surprised if they attacked Pearl Harbor."
(Although Leahy defended Admiral Richardson's argument to move the Pacific Fleet back to San Diego, he didn't press the issue with Roosevelt. But Leahy felt Peal Harbor was too vulnerable.)
With a day of the Japanese attack, Leahy pressured Pétain to remain neutral. After Germany declared war on the United States, he bluntly told Pétain and Admiral François Darlan that any aid Vichy France gave to the Axis would be viewed as a hostile act and the U.S. would seize any part of the French Empire it wanted and attack any French military force it thought was a threat.
In June 1942 Leahy was recalled to Washington. Roosevelt was making him the first person to preside as chief of staff, his official title being Chief of Staff to the Commander in Chief, Amy and Navy of the United States. This put him senior over Gen. Marshall (Chief of Staff of the Army) and Admiral Ernest King (Chief of Naval Operations). FDR had known Leahy for decades and had planned this role out for him as early as 1939.
Only Leahy and adviser Harry Hopkins at that point were given unrestricted access to the "Map Room", the White House Situation Room of the day. Although Leahy was more conservative than the liberal Hopkins, the two formed a close relationship.
Marshall favored a German-first strategy; King favored concentrating on Japan. Arnold wanted a strategic bombing force to work against both Axis powers. The only thing the three officers seemed to agree on was in their opposition to an invasion of North Africa, favoring instead a buildup of U.S. troops in Great Britain. Leahy favored invading North Africa and was quite impatient about it, feeling it was something that could be achieved with U.S. seapower and help shorten the war "by half."
"Some day, to win the war superior pressure must be applied at a weak point in the German military campaign," he wrote in his diary five months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. "Today that vulnerable spot is North Africa."
Leahy's position cannot be compared to today's Chair of the JCS. He was far more powerful and was free of ANY civilian authority other than the president.
Marshall rarely spent time alone with Roosevelt. When FDR died and attended the burial at Hyde Park, he remarked that it was the first time he had been invited to Roosevelt's family home. Whereas Leahy would see FDR nearly daily, often several times a day.
When Gen. Marshall pushed for ten million men in uniform and Gen. Arnold wanted production favoring aircraft, Leahy countered that "with ten million men in the Armed Services... great difficulty will be encountered in providing sufficient material for the war effort and for civilian use." Leahy was worried that too large of an army would "wreck" the labor market.
Leahy, a former battleship proponent, also made it clear that in the wake of the battles in the Coral Sea and at Midway that aircraft carrier production could not be held back by anything else. With fewer tanks than Marshall wanted, the cross channel invasion would certainly have to wait until 1944 (as Leahy preferred instead of Marshall's 1943 goal).
O'Brien writes that "The United States, in the end, fought precisely the war that William Leahy wanted to fight. It was an air-sea machinery-based war, with a remarkably small land army, all things considered."
Phillips Payson O'Brien's biography of Leahy is titled, "The Second Most Powerful Man in the World."
Roosevelt had sent Leahy over to Europe as the Ambassador to Vichy France so as to help moderate any collaboration between the French and the Germans:
"We are confronting an increasingly serious situation in France because of the possibility that one element of the French government might persuade Marshal Pétain to enter into agreements with Germany which will facilitate the efforts of the Axis Powers against Great Britain and there is even the possibility that France may actually engage in a war against Great Britain.... We need in France at this time an ambassador who gain gain the confidence of Marshal Petain..."
- President Roosevelt, telegram to Admiral William Leahy, November 17, 1940
In late 1941 as U.S.-Japanese relations worsened, H. Freeman Matthews (his chargé d'affaires) asked Leahy what the Japanese might do. Leahy replied, "I would not be surprised if they attacked Pearl Harbor."
(Although Leahy defended Admiral Richardson's argument to move the Pacific Fleet back to San Diego, he didn't press the issue with Roosevelt. But Leahy felt Peal Harbor was too vulnerable.)
With a day of the Japanese attack, Leahy pressured Pétain to remain neutral. After Germany declared war on the United States, he bluntly told Pétain and Admiral François Darlan that any aid Vichy France gave to the Axis would be viewed as a hostile act and the U.S. would seize any part of the French Empire it wanted and attack any French military force it thought was a threat.
In June 1942 Leahy was recalled to Washington. Roosevelt was making him the first person to preside as chief of staff, his official title being Chief of Staff to the Commander in Chief, Amy and Navy of the United States. This put him senior over Gen. Marshall (Chief of Staff of the Army) and Admiral Ernest King (Chief of Naval Operations). FDR had known Leahy for decades and had planned this role out for him as early as 1939.
Only Leahy and adviser Harry Hopkins at that point were given unrestricted access to the "Map Room", the White House Situation Room of the day. Although Leahy was more conservative than the liberal Hopkins, the two formed a close relationship.
Marshall favored a German-first strategy; King favored concentrating on Japan. Arnold wanted a strategic bombing force to work against both Axis powers. The only thing the three officers seemed to agree on was in their opposition to an invasion of North Africa, favoring instead a buildup of U.S. troops in Great Britain. Leahy favored invading North Africa and was quite impatient about it, feeling it was something that could be achieved with U.S. seapower and help shorten the war "by half."
"Some day, to win the war superior pressure must be applied at a weak point in the German military campaign," he wrote in his diary five months before the attack on Pearl Harbor. "Today that vulnerable spot is North Africa."
Leahy's position cannot be compared to today's Chair of the JCS. He was far more powerful and was free of ANY civilian authority other than the president.
Marshall rarely spent time alone with Roosevelt. When FDR died and attended the burial at Hyde Park, he remarked that it was the first time he had been invited to Roosevelt's family home. Whereas Leahy would see FDR nearly daily, often several times a day.
When Gen. Marshall pushed for ten million men in uniform and Gen. Arnold wanted production favoring aircraft, Leahy countered that "with ten million men in the Armed Services... great difficulty will be encountered in providing sufficient material for the war effort and for civilian use." Leahy was worried that too large of an army would "wreck" the labor market.
Leahy, a former battleship proponent, also made it clear that in the wake of the battles in the Coral Sea and at Midway that aircraft carrier production could not be held back by anything else. With fewer tanks than Marshall wanted, the cross channel invasion would certainly have to wait until 1944 (as Leahy preferred instead of Marshall's 1943 goal).
O'Brien writes that "The United States, in the end, fought precisely the war that William Leahy wanted to fight. It was an air-sea machinery-based war, with a remarkably small land army, all things considered."
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@beckyromero The greatest problem I have is FDR. He was up to a lot things that have never been made clear. The entire Pearl Harbour fiasco and why there were no aircraft carriers there. How convenient. Sadly FDR was not the wonderful man that history made him out to be. He like Churchill were up to their eyebrows in getting WWII going and keeping it going so the 'empire' may continue.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@hippyjoe1955
The small Langley, CV-1, was sunk in the Philippines (it more of a tender at that point). Ranger was in the Atlantic; it was not really fit for duty in the Pacific. Hornet had just been commissioned in October and was undergoing trails in the Atlantic. Wasp was also in the Atlantic, after having supported the occupation of Iceland.
Saratoga was on the west coast. Lexington was ferrying fighters to Midway. Enterprise was at sea after ferrying fighters to Wake Island. The Enterprise task force would have been at Pearl when the attack happened had heavy seas not delayed its arrival.
As was said by Commander William T. Riker, USS Enterprise, NCC-1701, in an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation after a close call:
[media=https://youtu.be/mT-u6BF8p2E]
The small Langley, CV-1, was sunk in the Philippines (it more of a tender at that point). Ranger was in the Atlantic; it was not really fit for duty in the Pacific. Hornet had just been commissioned in October and was undergoing trails in the Atlantic. Wasp was also in the Atlantic, after having supported the occupation of Iceland.
Saratoga was on the west coast. Lexington was ferrying fighters to Midway. Enterprise was at sea after ferrying fighters to Wake Island. The Enterprise task force would have been at Pearl when the attack happened had heavy seas not delayed its arrival.
As was said by Commander William T. Riker, USS Enterprise, NCC-1701, in an episode of Star Trek: The Next Generation after a close call:
[media=https://youtu.be/mT-u6BF8p2E]
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@beckyromero And all the battle ships were expendable. The US was not taken by surprise. It allowed it to happen on purpose. It provoked Japan into attacking. It made sure that none of its carriers were in danger to keep them for the time they were needed. I am not a fan of Hirohito or Hitler but the leaders on our side were almost as evil.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@hippyjoe1955
The battlewagons were not expendable. But they guzzled fuel like Canadian hockey fans guzzle beer. They couldn't be kept at sea indefinitely. They also were slower than molasses. The eight BBs at Pearl were World War I era ships, the more modern and faster Washington and North Carolina class only just then being built and coming slowly into commission.
War Plan Orange, the interwar naval plan to defeat Japan, counted on slowly moving the battle force across the Pacific and defeating the IJN in a battleship and bombardment gunnery action.
https://www.amazon.com/War-Plan-Orange-Strategy-1897-1945/dp/0870217593
The Washington Treaty and the London Treaty restricted the U.S. ability to build more modern and faster ships. It also restricted fortifying Wake Island (and Singapore, in the British case). Those treaties, which resulted in the destruction of more U.S. capital ships than the Central Power sunk in World War I, were the result of three successive Republican administrations: Harding, Coolidge and Hoover.
It was Roosevelt and the Democratic Congress which began rebuilding the U.S. fleet. But building ships takes time. And the modern fleet which won wars in two oceans was not anywhere near capable of taking on the Japanese in December 1941. The GOP fools had given the Japanese a favorable ratio in tonnage 5:5:3 (US/UK/Japan) and didn't even build to U.S. limits. Japan could have never hoped to sustain a naval arms race.
But given the U.S. maintaining fleets in both the Atlantic and the Pacific and the British Commonwealth fighting Germany, Japan was the preeminent naval power in the Pacific in 1941. But at the time, racism played its part in dismissing Japanese superiority in both numbers and tactics.
Read the books: Pearl Harbor: The Final Verdict by Gordan Prange and The Reluctant Admiral: Yamamoto and the Imperial Navy, by Hiroyuki Agawa.
And take a stab at The Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings before the Joint Committee of the 79th Congress.
https://www.ibiblio.org/pha/congress/
You don't watch movies, right? 😉
Do yourself a favor.
Watch Tora! Tora! Tora!
[media=https://youtu.be/jp6chxICfTQ]
and The Admiral (with English subtitles).
[media=https://youtu.be/kBQotim_ZHA]
The battlewagons were not expendable. But they guzzled fuel like Canadian hockey fans guzzle beer. They couldn't be kept at sea indefinitely. They also were slower than molasses. The eight BBs at Pearl were World War I era ships, the more modern and faster Washington and North Carolina class only just then being built and coming slowly into commission.
War Plan Orange, the interwar naval plan to defeat Japan, counted on slowly moving the battle force across the Pacific and defeating the IJN in a battleship and bombardment gunnery action.
https://www.amazon.com/War-Plan-Orange-Strategy-1897-1945/dp/0870217593
The Washington Treaty and the London Treaty restricted the U.S. ability to build more modern and faster ships. It also restricted fortifying Wake Island (and Singapore, in the British case). Those treaties, which resulted in the destruction of more U.S. capital ships than the Central Power sunk in World War I, were the result of three successive Republican administrations: Harding, Coolidge and Hoover.
It was Roosevelt and the Democratic Congress which began rebuilding the U.S. fleet. But building ships takes time. And the modern fleet which won wars in two oceans was not anywhere near capable of taking on the Japanese in December 1941. The GOP fools had given the Japanese a favorable ratio in tonnage 5:5:3 (US/UK/Japan) and didn't even build to U.S. limits. Japan could have never hoped to sustain a naval arms race.
But given the U.S. maintaining fleets in both the Atlantic and the Pacific and the British Commonwealth fighting Germany, Japan was the preeminent naval power in the Pacific in 1941. But at the time, racism played its part in dismissing Japanese superiority in both numbers and tactics.
Read the books: Pearl Harbor: The Final Verdict by Gordan Prange and The Reluctant Admiral: Yamamoto and the Imperial Navy, by Hiroyuki Agawa.
And take a stab at The Pearl Harbor Attack Hearings before the Joint Committee of the 79th Congress.
https://www.ibiblio.org/pha/congress/
You don't watch movies, right? 😉
Do yourself a favor.
Watch Tora! Tora! Tora!
[media=https://youtu.be/jp6chxICfTQ]
and The Admiral (with English subtitles).
[media=https://youtu.be/kBQotim_ZHA]
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@beckyromero nice propaganda videos. The US had cracked the Japanese diplomatic code and were aware of the Japanese plans if not the exact date or scale they knew there was an attack imminent. As should be expected. FDR had done everything he could to provoke Japan into attacking. The fact was that the US had pretty much declared its battleships obsolete justifiably with the advent of the carrier the battle ship became yesterday's tech. What perfect cover. Great excuse to blame it all on Japan. Japan was not an innocent player but much like Venezuela the US was sticking its nose in where it didn't belong. The US was and still is part of the empire and Trump is dancing to its tune just as was FDR and Churchill. War is good money and nothing feeds empire like money.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@hippyjoe1955
Don't believe the rabid anti-Roosevelt clique.
The battleships at Pearl were old but still quite effective in a gunnery duel or at shore bombardment. As the Germans found out on D-Day. And as the Japanese found out during MacArthur's "island hopping" campaign and the Navy's thrust thru the central Pacific.
And the Japanese diplomatic code didn't give any "exact" date, but the fear was that the Philippines might be attack or perhaps Wake Island.
As for the lame "provoking" argument, I could ask what do you have against the Chinese people? Because that's why stopped selling Japan oil. Or do you think a country is obligated to help another country's war machine in killing millions of innocent civilians?
It's too bad Yamamoto couldn't convince his government that signing the Tripartite Pact and then attacking the United States was going to lead to disaster for Japan. Yamamoto is a tragic figure.
[media=https://youtu.be/LVwlUe_t3jg]
Don't believe the rabid anti-Roosevelt clique.
The battleships at Pearl were old but still quite effective in a gunnery duel or at shore bombardment. As the Germans found out on D-Day. And as the Japanese found out during MacArthur's "island hopping" campaign and the Navy's thrust thru the central Pacific.
And the Japanese diplomatic code didn't give any "exact" date, but the fear was that the Philippines might be attack or perhaps Wake Island.
As for the lame "provoking" argument, I could ask what do you have against the Chinese people? Because that's why stopped selling Japan oil. Or do you think a country is obligated to help another country's war machine in killing millions of innocent civilians?
It's too bad Yamamoto couldn't convince his government that signing the Tripartite Pact and then attacking the United States was going to lead to disaster for Japan. Yamamoto is a tragic figure.
[media=https://youtu.be/LVwlUe_t3jg]
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@beckyromero I don't believe anyone in that regard. I don't believe the rabid FDR lovers either. He did a lot of damage to the US including dragging out the great depression for years. History has been way too kind to him. I'm reminded of the US general and I can't remember his name who said after the fire bombing of Tokyo, words to the effect that if America does not win the war we will all be hanged as war criminals.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@hippyjoe1955
According to former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, it was Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay who said that, the same general who wanted to bomb the Soviet missiles in Cuba with a follow-up invasion.
According to former Secretary of Defense Robert McNamara, it was Maj. Gen. Curtis LeMay who said that, the same general who wanted to bomb the Soviet missiles in Cuba with a follow-up invasion.
hippyjoe1955 · 70-79, M
@beckyromero Yes thanks for reminding me of that. Unfortunately nothing is as black and white as we might want them to be. I was just watching a series of videos of Trump disparaging Hillary for regime change in Iraq, Syria, Libya and Ukraine and declaring emphatically that the US was not going to do that anymore. Less than a year in office and Venezuela. hmmmmm
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beckyromero · 36-40, F
Thinkerbell · 41-45, F
@beckyromero
If Bismarck had lived another 47 years, he might have saved Germany a LOT of grief.
Unlike his successors, he knew EXACTLY how far to push.
If Bismarck had lived another 47 years, he might have saved Germany a LOT of grief.
Unlike his successors, he knew EXACTLY how far to push.
beckyromero · 36-40, F
@Thinkerbell
Quite true indeed.
If Bismarck had lived another 47 years, he might have saved Germany a LOT of grief.
Quite true indeed.