European Union must have a central role in Ukraine peace deal, Ursula von der Leyen said.
She is right. Why is Trump playing power broker and making deals with Russia over Ukraine?
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Roundandroundwego · 61-69
NATO is threatening Russia through its proxy, Ukraine and has already attacked Europe- including severing the Nordstrom two pipeline and cutting the EU off from Russia. The USA is the only actual power in NATO. Russia is the target. Europe might want to help the USA break up Russia, but they're too weak to matter.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@Roundandroundwego
Public opinion has shifted and the US is backing off from the Ukraine war. What puzzles me is why the UK, France, Germany, and the Scandinavian states are pushing for war against Russia?
Russia is the target. Europe might want to help the USA break up Russia, but they're too weak to matter.
Public opinion has shifted and the US is backing off from the Ukraine war. What puzzles me is why the UK, France, Germany, and the Scandinavian states are pushing for war against Russia?
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@sree251 because of the money they've made from the Ukraine war, the Western elites can remain in power in every single Western country, no matter how much the populations hate their politics. They would otherwise be out of power.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@sree251 Likely a couple of things involved here. The Americans basically convinced them to commit economic suicide for this proxy war so there is a sunk cost fallacy. Like the gambler desperately chasing a delusional big win that will dig them out of the hole they created.
Delusions of still being empires that can dictate global politics or being relevant to global politics are all..
This war is proving that the former European powers are totally irrelevant geo-politically. They are basically Lithuania.
This is resulting in lashing out much like how the British nearly triggered WW3 over the Suez Canal because they could not accept they were no longer the global empire.
That and these are all European countries that are global arms dealers. So they are also trying to paper over the economic suicide with arms sales.
The problem is if even Ukraine finds more borrowed or stolen money Europe and even the US don't have the capacity to produce enough weapons for it to matter.
Also France, Germany and the UK have governments with public support in the toilet. Ditto with the leadership in Brussels.
If they can create a pretext that Trump lost the war in Ukraine they can leave him holding the bag without having to take responsibility for their idiotic decisions over the last 10 years.
Delusions of still being empires that can dictate global politics or being relevant to global politics are all..
This war is proving that the former European powers are totally irrelevant geo-politically. They are basically Lithuania.
This is resulting in lashing out much like how the British nearly triggered WW3 over the Suez Canal because they could not accept they were no longer the global empire.
That and these are all European countries that are global arms dealers. So they are also trying to paper over the economic suicide with arms sales.
The problem is if even Ukraine finds more borrowed or stolen money Europe and even the US don't have the capacity to produce enough weapons for it to matter.
Also France, Germany and the UK have governments with public support in the toilet. Ditto with the leadership in Brussels.
If they can create a pretext that Trump lost the war in Ukraine they can leave him holding the bag without having to take responsibility for their idiotic decisions over the last 10 years.
Roundandroundwego · 61-69
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow how convenient that the weapons produce profits for the elites in Europe and the same people can use the media to create endless wars.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Roundandroundwego What makes it even more wild is it is starting to delve into corruption and money laundering in the sense that they are writing contracts for weapons they cannot even fulfill or for weapons they pinky swear they will deliver in 5 or 10 years because they don't have the production capacity or the ability to source what they promise.
Like the EU collected a whole pile of money to purchase artillery shells they have not even been able to source globally from willing countries.
Or deals with European arms companies to build factories in 5 years in cities that could fall in 5 months.
The whole thing is becoming absolutely absurd.
Like the EU collected a whole pile of money to purchase artillery shells they have not even been able to source globally from willing countries.
Or deals with European arms companies to build factories in 5 years in cities that could fall in 5 months.
The whole thing is becoming absolutely absurd.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@sree251 NO-ONE is "pushing for war against Russia"!
NO-ONE wants a war!!
Despite anti-European sentiment in the United States of America and the Russian Federation wanting to promulgate such notions.
Instead some European nations are genuinely afraid of Russia attacking them, as indeed she is already doing covertly by sabotage, assassinations of Russians on W. European countries, and Internet-based interference.
NO-ONE wants a war!!
Despite anti-European sentiment in the United States of America and the Russian Federation wanting to promulgate such notions.
Instead some European nations are genuinely afraid of Russia attacking them, as indeed she is already doing covertly by sabotage, assassinations of Russians on W. European countries, and Internet-based interference.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@ArishMell That is just objectively false.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Objectively false or your wish?
Tell me any nations that actually wants a war? Even Putin thought he could take over Ukraine merely by a coup backed by a column of tanks - but he was certainly keen to start shooting when he was proven wrong.
Tell me any nations that actually wants a war? Even Putin thought he could take over Ukraine merely by a coup backed by a column of tanks - but he was certainly keen to start shooting when he was proven wrong.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@ArishMell It is objectively false and obviously so.
There have been hundreds if not thousands of nations who wanted war over thousands of years.
And you contradict yourself by claiming no nation wants war except Putin because of your feelings.
And the coup in Ukraine was carried out by the US in 2014 with their British and EU lackeys. You are inventing a Russian coup out of thin air here.
It turned into a serious ware when lapdog Boris Johnson told Zelensky he was to fight for western imperialism to the last Ukrainian or be treated like a collaborator.
The leaders of the EU are desperately talking about picking a fight with Russia because they still live under the delusions that they are imperial powers who can dictate geopolitical outcomes.
Meanwhile Ukraine literally has more deserters than the combined armies of France, Germany, and the UK.
The west started this but Russia will finish it.
Trump is desperately trying to force a "peace deal" on Russia and strong arming Zelensky into compliance because Trump doesn't want the humiliation of an absolute surrender on his watch and is looking to profit off whatever happens.
The problem is the US and the EU have zero leverage to demand anything.
There have been hundreds if not thousands of nations who wanted war over thousands of years.
And you contradict yourself by claiming no nation wants war except Putin because of your feelings.
And the coup in Ukraine was carried out by the US in 2014 with their British and EU lackeys. You are inventing a Russian coup out of thin air here.
It turned into a serious ware when lapdog Boris Johnson told Zelensky he was to fight for western imperialism to the last Ukrainian or be treated like a collaborator.
The leaders of the EU are desperately talking about picking a fight with Russia because they still live under the delusions that they are imperial powers who can dictate geopolitical outcomes.
Meanwhile Ukraine literally has more deserters than the combined armies of France, Germany, and the UK.
The west started this but Russia will finish it.
Trump is desperately trying to force a "peace deal" on Russia and strong arming Zelensky into compliance because Trump doesn't want the humiliation of an absolute surrender on his watch and is looking to profit off whatever happens.
The problem is the US and the EU have zero leverage to demand anything.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow
That is utter rubbish. It reads like something from a 1960s edition of Pravda. NO European country, whether EU or not, wants to be an imperialist power these days, and one reason the precursors to the EU formed was to try to prevent future wars on the continent. NONE want a war. Why would they?
Please do tell where you are writing from, and what you wish for the future of Ukraine, the Russian Federation, Europe (EU and non-EU) and the USA.
The only point you make that has any validity is neither the EU (a bloc of many nations) nor USA (one nation) having any leverage. Over President Putin, probably not because Putin has a ruthless determination to take Ukraine whatever the cost to his own country and whatever anyone else does or says. He has never made any secret of his hatred of the Ukrainians, and of his wish to take their territory.
The leaders of the EU are desperately talking about picking a fight with Russia because they still live under the delusions that they are imperial powers who can dictate geopolitical outcomes.
That is utter rubbish. It reads like something from a 1960s edition of Pravda. NO European country, whether EU or not, wants to be an imperialist power these days, and one reason the precursors to the EU formed was to try to prevent future wars on the continent. NONE want a war. Why would they?
Please do tell where you are writing from, and what you wish for the future of Ukraine, the Russian Federation, Europe (EU and non-EU) and the USA.
The only point you make that has any validity is neither the EU (a bloc of many nations) nor USA (one nation) having any leverage. Over President Putin, probably not because Putin has a ruthless determination to take Ukraine whatever the cost to his own country and whatever anyone else does or says. He has never made any secret of his hatred of the Ukrainians, and of his wish to take their territory.
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PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@ArishMell And what I said about the EU applies to the ruling elite. The people are not onboard with this. It is why people like Macron are competing with Trump for most unpopular leader, and why elections in Romania, and Moldova were rigged to make sure they were pro NATO regardless of what the people want.
ArishMell · 70-79, M
@PicturesOfABetterTomorrow Your opinions are so belligerently anti-US, anti-Europe and anti-Ukraine it is hard to judge you as not pro-Putin.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@ArishMell It is not opinion. It is fact based analysis. You have made things up out of thin air in this debate to fit your narrative.
Not my fault global domination is literally official US foreign policy. And NATO is just the American foreign legion.
And tell me how is using Ukrainians as cannon fodder for western imperialism "pro Ukrainian". Oh and Ukraine is not a monolith.
And dealing with objective reality doesn't make someone "pro Putin." That is a great argument if you want to shut down discussion and have no argument though.
Accuse everyone of being a foreign agent and you never have to make a valid argument about anything.
Not my fault global domination is literally official US foreign policy. And NATO is just the American foreign legion.
And tell me how is using Ukrainians as cannon fodder for western imperialism "pro Ukrainian". Oh and Ukraine is not a monolith.
And dealing with objective reality doesn't make someone "pro Putin." That is a great argument if you want to shut down discussion and have no argument though.
Accuse everyone of being a foreign agent and you never have to make a valid argument about anything.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Roundandroundwego The UK. Starmer keeps babbling on about trying to insert 10 000 troops into Ukraine the moment there is a pause in fighting and also seemed to imply doing so regardless of what is decided upon.
So basically enough troops to last 2 weeks.
So basically enough troops to last 2 weeks.
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sree251 · 41-45, M
@ArishMell
Some European nations? Which ones? Name them and let's discuss what their fears are and the Russian motive for attacking them.
Instead some European nations are genuinely afraid of Russia attacking them, as indeed she is already doing covertly by sabotage, assassinations of Russians on W. European countries, and Internet-based interference.
Some European nations? Which ones? Name them and let's discuss what their fears are and the Russian motive for attacking them.
PicturesOfABetterTomorrow · 41-45, M
@Roundandroundwego Starmer and his series of predecessors think it is the 1700s and they are fighting the Crimean War again, France thinks this is a rematch of the Napoleonic Wars, Lithuania and Poland probably still have delusions of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth. I have personally met such Polish nationalist lunatics.
Basically anyone who has ever lost a war with Russia sees this as a do-over.
Basically anyone who has ever lost a war with Russia sees this as a do-over.