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Trump Lectures South African President in Televised Oval Office Confrontation

In an astonishing confrontation in the Oval Office on Wednesday, President Trump lectured President Cyril Ramaphosa of South Africa with false claims about a genocide against white Afrikaner farmers, even dimming the lights to show what he said was video evidence of their persecution.

The meeting had been expected to be tense, given that Trump has suspended all aid to the country and created an exception to his refugee ban for Afrikaners, fast-tracking their path to citizenship even as he keeps thousands of other people out of the United States.

The meeting quickly became a stark demonstration of Mr. Trump’s belief that the world has aligned against white people, and that Black people and minorities have received preferential treatment.

Ramaphosa had along with him several white South Africans, including some golfers and a Billionaire, to support his argument that whites are not targeted. The South Africans acknowledged there's a crime issue in South Africa, not a crime against whites issue.

Elon Musk, who's been critical of Ramaphosa and pushing false genocide claims.

“Elon happens to be from South Africa,” Trump said. “This is what Elon wanted.”

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BohemianBabe · M

While the part about white genocide is a lie, the South African government does have affirmative action programs that essentially keep white people poor. Affirmative action is always bad, but in South Africa, white people are a fairly small minority. Not saying the situation is good for black people either, but it is much worse for white South Africans.

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BohemianBabe · M

@Northwest The answer is both. All working-class South Africans have it bad because of the economy, but black South Africans at least have race-based social programs that help them. So this means white South Africans are at a huge disadvantage in trying to survive the economic conditions.

Northwest · M

@BohemianBabe

South African affirmative action laws, primarily embodied in the Employment Equity Act (EEA) and Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment (B-BBEE) Act, aim to address historical inequalities by promoting the representation of previously disadvantaged groups in employment and business. These laws mandate that employers take measures to ensure that suitably qualified individuals from designated groups (including Black people, women, and people with disabilities) have equal employment opportunities and are equitably represented in the workforce.

This inevitably means that some qualified whites may be passed over in favor of blacks. When do you shelve these laws and say "we're good now, and there's no need for affirmative action?" I am not sure. Remember Apartheid? a complex web of laws and policies that denied basic rights and freedoms to Black South Africans, not just isolated violent acts.

Examples of state-sanctioned violence include the Sharpeville massacre, where police fired on unarmed protesters, and the Soweto uprising, where students protesting against the use of Afrikaans in schools were shot by police.

BohemianBabe · M

@Northwest Affirmative action programs are racist in that they reward or punish people based on race. If a black family is forced into a ghetto, then a hundred years later, we force a white family into a ghetto to make up for it, we didn't actually undo the injustice that happened to that black family a hundred years ago. All we did was punish a group of individuals for something they didn't do.

So while the white genocide isn't real, white South Africans do face systemic racism.

Northwest · M

@BohemianBabe

Affirmative action programs are racist in that they reward or punish people based on race.

Taken in the absolute, and without a context attached to it. The latter is what Trump is all about. Should we have ignored Jim Crow laws effect on the Southern populace and declared that it will balance itself out, over the next 500 years, when the Civil Rights Act was passed, or inject something into the process to make sure we don't wait 500 years for equality to happen, if any?

we force a white family into a ghetto to make up for it,

Is this hyberbole really what's happen in South Africa, or are we talking about job placement?

In reality, given that blacks are the majority, I don't see way to inject corrections, through affirmative action, where the minority would feel not discriminated against. Every white South African I worked with, was racist as fuck, and were screaming bloody murder when governing passed to the black majority.

BohemianBabe · M

@Northwest

Should we have ignored Jim Crow laws effect on the Southern populace and declared that it will balance itself out, over the next 500 years, when the Civil Rights Act was passed, or inject something into the process to make sure we don't wait 500 years for equality to happen, if any?

We can do that without being racist in the other direction. If America had free healthcare and universal basic income, it wouldn't just be the end of racial wealth gaps, it would be the end of poverty in America. Of course, the Democrats only talk about systemic racism in order to distract people from the real problem, systemic classism.

Is this hyberbole really what's happen in South Africa, or are we talking about job placement?

We're talking about treating people as collectives based on race instead of treating them like individuals. The analogy I used treats the individual and their race as the same thing, which is what South Africa does.

In reality, given that blacks are the majority, I don't see way to inject corrections, through affirmative action, where the minority would feel not discriminated against.

Yes, because affirmative action is racism. It's worse in South Africa because white people are a minority, but it's racist in America too.

Northwest · M

@BohemianBabe

Spoken like a guy who did not suffer the lasting effects of Jim Crow on the US.

Yes, because affirmative action is racism.

Only to the people who were not victims to the circumstances that made them in need of affirmative action.

Kind of like Trump and his oligarchs saying that "we all need to suffer" but are not willing to give up their private jets.

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Northwest · M

@BohemianBabe

Am I wrong? Imagine if as soon as they abolished Jim Crow, they instituted UBI and free healthcare. Would that not have lifted all people, especially black people, out of poverty? And because these policies aren't race-based, it wouldn't leave behind working-class people of any race.

You're making my point for me. During Apartheid, everything went to the white minority, so then you're saying it would have been fair for the new government to confiscate the white ill gained fortunes to implement UBI and universal healthcare. Only that would not have been enough, as the whites did not invest in growing everyone's earning potential, and instead focused on taking what little of it was available, and spreading it across a tiny group of the population.

Again, you're confusing the individual with the collective. Today's black Americans didn't live under slavery or segregation.

And you're under the spell of the White Bro culture where simple because laws exist, then we're instantly in post racism America. Not evident given the reaction to the Obama presidency. You don't say "Harvard is open to everyone", and then wonder why the high school senior, in a black community, who did not have Latin, Calculus, fencing and dressage starting in middle class, did not make the cut.

Musk

Glad you mentioned Musk. I suppose his family would be what it is today, if it had grown up in a Black South Africa during apartheid.

BohemianBabe · M

@Northwest

Only from the rich ones. It's not like all white people were rich under apartheid.

then we're instantly in post racism America. Not evident given the reaction to the Obama presidency.

I'm not saying racism doesn't still exist. I'm saying today's black population didn't live under slavery or segregation.

You don't say "Harvard is open to everyone", and then wonder why the high school senior, in a black community, who did not have Latin, Calculus, fencing and dressage starting in middle class, did not make the cut.

I already acknowledged that there are racial wealth gaps. There are different reasons, depending on which gap we're talking about, but when it comes to black people it mainly is the history of racism that held their ancestors back. But there is a way to fix this without using racism against white people, which really wouldn't solve anything, it would just continue the cycle of racism. If we had class-based reparations, like UBI and free healthcare, all of the wealth gaps would close.

Glad you mentioned Musk. I suppose his family would be what it is today, if it had grown up in a Black South Africa during apartheid.

Did they not?

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BohemianBabe · M

@Northwest

How is this punishing all white people? There are 5 jobs available. 4 should be allocated to qualified black people and 1 to a qualified white person. That's not collectives punishment.

That's not how affirmative action works. It's that if a black person and a white person are both qualified, the job goes to the black person. Also, the version South Africa has is more extreme than the American version. It's to the point where in some parts of the country, white people legit can't get hired anywhere.

You're borrowing from Trump and Musk with the "class action is another form of racism against Whites", but reparations based is something Trump and Musk and MAGAs reject outright.

Yes, because the MAGA cult doesn't actually care about helping the working-class, they only care about being racist, transphobic, and sexist. If MAGA was actually populist, if it was about "making America great again," they wouldn't just stop at rejecting affirmative action, they would also embrace pro-worker policies like UBI and free healthcare.

Northwest · M

@BohemianBabe

My statement:

There are 5 jobs available. 4 should be allocated to qualified black people and 1 to a qualified white person.

You:

That's not how affirmative action works. It's that if a black person and a white person are both qualified, the job goes to the black person.

How's this different from what I said?

Affirmative action refers to policies and programs designed to address historical and ongoing discrimination by actively seeking to increase the participation of underrepresented groups in education, employment, and government contracting.

BohemianBabe · M

@Northwest

How's this different from what I said?

Because it means that the white person is competing with a handicap. Whites can't just be qualified, they have to be way way more qualified than the most qualified black person.

Affirmative action refers to policies and programs designed to address historical and ongoing discrimination by actively seeking to increase the participation of underrepresented groups in education, employment, and government contracting.

That's DEI. Affirmative action doesn't just reach out to historically underrepresented groups, which I'm ok with, it also takes race and gender into account during the hiring process. That's the part that gives a handicap.

Northwest · M

@BohemianBabe

Because it means that the white person is competing with a handicap. Whites can't just be qualified, they have to be way way more qualified than the most qualified black person.

I'm sure the irony is not lost on you. And the reason this is somewhat warranted, is because the system still has ways to go, to balance due to the virtual enslavement blacks endured. And this is not about revenge, it's about leveling the playing field. Its been only 30 years since apartheid, not nearly enough.

So, poor whites, they've endured it for less than a single generation.

That's DEI.

No.

BohemianBabe · M

@Northwest But you do realize you're proving my point, right? You're saying in order to make up for past racism, we need to have a different version of racism. Maybe the point isn't to punish the white working-class, but that is still what happens.

You're falling for the lie that centrist Democrats sell us. The way we "level the playing field" is by taking even more from the white working-class and giving it to the black working-class. But the entire working-class is still exploited by the rich and powerful. It's a scam to divert attention away from economics and classism.

Northwest · M

@BohemianBabe

But you do realize you're proving my point, right? You're saying in order to make up for past racism, we need to have a different version of racism.

No, but you keep repeating that, and you can drop in as many memes as you like.

Racism, is systems like apartheid in South Africa, Jim Crow, not affirmative action designed to allow the Dynamics of the System to balance it out.

Racism is when hate for its own sake is the law defacto or real.

Recognize the difference.

And NO it's not taking away from the whites have.

Giving a qualified black person a slice of the pie, proportionate to their percentage of the population, is not "another form of racism", is not the same as the apartheid or Jim Crow, where any white person is allowed to take all jobs and enslave blacks.

You'e falling for the Trumpism trap, where we live in a post racism world, and any quotas amount to reverse racism.

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Northwest · M

@BohemianBabe

By that definition, slavery was not racism. White Americans didn't hate black people

affirmative action isn't about hatred, but it still harms Whites.

Congratulations, the Ku Klux Klan could not have not come up with a more creative justification for slavery and "white washing of racism". 😭

Still though, NO. You should take a tour of some southern hick town, or read a book about the Jim Crow South, and how much red necks navigating the fine line between hating blacks, versus thinking they're an inferior species. 😭🤣

BohemianBabe · M

@Northwest You're missing the point. I'm saying slavery was racism because a population doesn't have to be hated to be oppressed by a system based on race. I'm not whitewashing racism, I'm saying it's still racist regardless of if hatred is an element.

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