The end of western democracies ?

@Kwek00 I can actually swing with most of that - evolution not revolution, Turn the terrorist into politicians with nobel peace prices and get them to reform based upon guilt - Amazing Grace, Mandela, Gerry Adams. Alfred Nobel

@Captain Evolution goes incredibly slow and it also needs a society that is willing to do self-reflection and critical thinking. Self-reflection, critical thinking... not sure if those are values that are reflected in a lot of western nations these days. There are reasons why right-wing populism is doing so great in many countries.

@Kwek00 Yes I think the lack of patience and reflective self regulation is due to the expectations of success and the greed of desire and peer pressure. In a way the publicity of a Trump and a Musk is harmful of itself. A vicious circle.

@Kwek00 Well my view is you have to have the right principles, and mine is above all others equality of opportunity so that the best end up being the best and having the most influence - which flies in the face of looking after your own children and positive discrimination as well as a whole lot of popular ideas - but gets the best outcome for all. The other big question is what does good look like ?

@Captain Well... yes... that question is linked too what I said earlier:


It's the person or group that imposes the new paradigm, that will define what is "good". I follow that up, with "For me personally...", I can tell you what I like, but that needs to be adopted by a large amount of people AND people need to live accordingly (includes myself) to work. Most of these ideas are idealistic, and even the ones that infuse them in society know that they can't or are not living up to them. That part is also an evolution. That... I think, is one of the things liberalism did give us, this idea of bettering society over time instead of going full oppressive on people. HOWEVER... when it comes o certain issues, I don't think we have time. I'm fairly pessimistic at this point, I think we are heading to a severe bloody trauma. But I hope humans proof me wrong.

@Captain
This btw


at this point in time... is an illusion. Wanting this over 200 years, might work, wanting it in the short run is futile. And meritocracy, no matter how nice it sounds, has severe issues. Someone that can explain this better then me is Michael Sandel.

@Kwek00 I accept all that - these are ideals and objectives, and that is my point, they are not the objectives of any government I know. They are happy for the rich or the powerful or both to gain favour for themselves and the favour of nepotism at the expensive of others and despite this being detrimental to society, and while money and power talk, corruption is the enemy of progress. The answer has to come top down and agree will be 100s of years in the achieving, but like any task, if you dont start on it you will never finish, The modern right wing societies make a virtue out of wealth, not ability due ot their very structures so it is strutralk reform that is required, then socities will be able to devleop in a bette redirection. JMHO.

@Captain I'm not even sure if that will ever be realized... because it would mean that humans have become so rational, that they have control of their subconcious biasses and longings. Unless you want to be ruled by an algoritme, which gives me "gataca" vibes (movie, look it up if you haven't seen it)... but, yeah, I just don't know how this would manifest itself. I'm afraid we'll always struggle with those subconcious things because we are humans... and, I'm okay with that. Being human and struggling... not being human and embracing the flaws in our thinking.

@Kwek00 OK forget that - read u what the guy who claimed to have been transported to the future in the Philedalphia experiment said. A world governed by and AI (the only thing that could keep ahead and protect itself from haclking by being able to see all hackers activities and what they might be plannig to do). A socialistic world where nobody needed to work, the populaiton was kept constant, but anybody who did got extra reward. Now that is a model that in a moderated form (you have ot volunteer when needed to help the state and still do your time in the army) that was voted on by Switzerland a few years ago. That is I think the best attempt yet at a fair society, but its an ideal and robots and AI are not able to tak eon the bulk of the work so humans can quit yet. However if yo dont have a goal you cant reach it.

@Captain I understand that part... I've always believed certain things should be freely accessible. I think, if I was trying to do something with society, I would make sure that:

* Housing
* Energy (to the extend that is ecologically maintable)
* Water
* Education (based on science and ratio)
* Food (to the extend that is ecologically maintable)
* Access to the internet, musea and libraries.

Should be made available for all members of society. All within the spirit of human rights, a "non-toxic" degree of individual freedom, rationalism and respect for ecology and nature. I think that would be an ideal to strive for, if it was me that steers the ship.

@Kwek00 I'll go with that list buit education does have to include access to news and internet should be added. for that reason

I agree. We need progress. The status quo has caused the US deficit to the benefit of our alleged friends. @Kwek00

@jackjjackson Your big corporates have made your progress for you, though it does seem the reality crash has started now. Your "alleged friends" are your customers and they are not going to be too happy with the way you are treating them and you will force them to shop elsewhere or not at all and that's when the hammer falls, and it feels like its falling now

They’ll find that “shopping elsewhere” isn’t to their benefit. @Captain

@jackjjackson I dont know shopping and Lidl andAldi has always worked for me.

That’s my point. The stuff in those stores isn’t as good and likewise buying from other counties due to being miffed by tariffs will get you inferior products. @Captain

@Captain
In the 80s, diffrent segments of the conservative movement over there supported Reagans' neoliberal policies to get out of the late 70s issues that keynsian economics produced. Reagan himself hung the congresial medal of freedom, around the neck of a guy that was totally okay with global free trade and illegale migration. Because illegale migration is economically more beneficial for the employers (and thus the economy) then when you have citizens working for you that have all kinds of rights.

In the 90s and 2000s, all those low waged jobs that part of the middle class were cheering for, because it made their goods and services cheaper were supported by importing cheap products. Wallmart delivered cheap products from low-waged countries with abysmal protection for workers and no rules to protect their natural surroundings.

And since 2015, the same conservative networks are blaming all the consequences of these actions... on foreign nations. Nations that they literally pushed to go along with the neoliberal plan whenever they had the opportunity to do so. Not only that, they captured part of the media bubble to spread lies for the last 40 years, and now you have fools like Jack running around. Totally captured, ignorant and an adult with an ego that isn't capable of any real learning or selfreflection. Jack votes for people that want to bring the jobs back to the US, by creating similair working conditions and with total disregard of the surroundings that society needs to live in. All because some rich group has educated him, by saying that this is the right way to go and that all that has happened is the fault of everyone they teached him not to like. And the only winners, are going to be those that are going to milk the cheap laborers that they have no regard for anyway. Jack is a usefull too, that will be thrown away the moment he doesn't bring any earnings in anymore.