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MandyMitchell · 80-89, F
build up the defences; spend less on foreign aid and refugees; security for our people is more important than supporting every foreigner who wants freebies from us.

Richard65 · M
This was fundamentally an American project. Trump complained that Europe wasn't paying its way in defence of Western freedom (etc), as if the USA was charitably protecting everyone from the bullies. American Imperialism relies on pitching its tents on as much international territory as it can. It currently has 800 military facilities in 70 countries. That is an invaluable asset to the continuation of American Imperialism, the expansion of American political, economic, cultural, media, and military influence beyond the boundaries of the United States of America. Effectively, they want everyone to supply the land they need and then to pay 2.5% towards its expansion. That's why, in 2019, U.S. Secretary of State Mike Pompeo stated that America would "deal" with socialist Labour leader Jeremy Corbyn if he looked to win the election and become Prime Minister of the UK (and he meant "deal" with Corbyn). You're paying 2.5% to maintain America's influence over the running of your own country.
Richard65 · M
@Northwest I didn't defend our own horrendous fading empire. But America kicked us out because it didn't wish to be a colony. It then proceeded to colonise everywhere that might prove advantageous to its Imperial expansionism. If you think they're doing that to maintain freedom and democracy, then you haven't been paying attention. America was founded on the belief of liberty. The hypocrisy is palpable.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@Northwest If you criticise imperialism in another country, it doesn't automatically make you a hypocrite. If you have the same standards for your own country (as I think Richard does) then this is consistent
Northwest · M
@Burnley123
If you criticise imperialism in another country, it doesn't automatically make you a hypocrite. If you have the same standards for your own country (as I think Richard does) then this is consistent

I am not saying that he's a hypocrite. I'm pointing out that the UK, France, Germany, etc. were not really forced to join the US, because they had a gun to their head. They did it, because they firmly believe in the direction the Western alliance is taking.

Take the situation in Gaza for instance. The UK did not unconditionally support the IDF, because the US forced them to. Same with France and Germany. All these countries had fighter jets shooting down Iranian drones, when Iran responded, and the UK's bases in Cypress and Lebanon, were buzzing like a hornet's nest under attack.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
I don't think it's necessary when we have other priorities..

Sure, if you are Poland or Finland, you might want an extra deterrent, just in case but there is no case for there being an immediate threat to the UK.

I think that this is being made a priority due to the jingoistic nature of the British press and the jaded post-imperialist hubris of our political class.

The Starner government's priorities are about doing as much as possible to insulate themselves from any plausible criticism that they are too left-wing or liberal. To lightly paraphrase what Blair said: They feel vulnerable to accusations of being woke.

Meanwhile, get ready for more austerity.
MandyMitchell · 80-89, F
@Burnley123 A missile could leave a Russian warship at ten in the morning and land in London at ten past.
MartinII · 70-79, M
The mistake the present government has made, as the previous one did, is to behave as if a particular level of expenditure is desirable in itself. That is always the wrong approach, whether in defence or any other context. First, you need to define what you want to achieve; second, try to calculate how much that would cost; third, decide whether you can afford it and if so how. I have heard nothing from the Labour Party on the first of these, and I don't expect to hear anything soon.
OldBrit · 61-69, M
The United States spent 3.47% of its GDP on defense in 2022.
- The UK spent 2.11% of its GDP on defense.
- Germany spent 1.44% of its GDP on defense.
- France spent 1.90% of its GDP on defense.
- Italy spent 1.44% of its GDP on defense.
- Canada spent 1.27% of its GDP on defense

So we're already second highest in Nato.

Now can we afford 2.5% when we have so many other public services on thier knees? That's a different and difficult question.
SW-User
@SW-User Thanks for pointing this out.

There is not much we can do without a strategic review. Pressure groups are bound to argue their case with very little evidence.

There is very little point iin giving overseas aid , if we don’t have our basic freedom.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@OldBrit And there are reasons for that east/west split.
swirlie · F
@OldBrit
So we're already second highest in Nato.

Congratulations! Here's a cookie for your efforts... 🍪 ... does this make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside now?
It's killing the ecosystem. NATO alone has emissions that we can't survive m. You can never plan for peace? It's probably the case - the West must be debased and ashamed, cut off from community and forced to admit peace as a possibility.
gol979 · 41-45, M
Get in the bin. Why are you asking to pay more tax/theft for war? Honestly
SW-User
@gol979 but security is another thing. We have very little, anti missile technology, not guns and troops, or out of date military personnel.
MartinII · 70-79, M
@gol979 For one thing, countries which are under threat, such as Ukraine and Israel at the moment, frequently ask for our help. For another, we are a member of the Security Council with a nuclear capability.
SW-User
Putin has his eye on the Baltic Sea, making a corridor from Kalinsberg to Russia. A Swedish island, he must gain control.

Just a dream, maybe not, as China is now doing manoeuvres is Belaruse, and Hungary is the joker of the EU.

But why the hell are we widening the issue, and supporting Israel in their genicide of Gaza.
UK foreign policy needs to be handled with care.
MandyMitchell · 80-89, F
@SW-User That may well be true.
wildbill83 · 41-45, M
1 - The "genocide" rhetoric is getting old. Everyone accusing Israel of it has apparently forgotten what a genocide is...

2 - Israel has quite possibly the best foreign intelligence service in the world; chances are good they know about potential attacks against your country before your own government does; That's the kind of country you want on your side...

3 - Instead of pushing all this naive idealistic greenie nonsense for the last 20-30 years, perhaps Europe should've been focusing on practical energy independence instead of importing oil from Russia... and in turn, enabling/funding Putin's invasions...

4 - The UN was intended to be a defensive redundancy & to prevent wars; not the world's police and instigate wars (like the previous league of nations that led to two world wars...)
SW-User
@wildbill83 point two, I agree with. The Egyptians had told them the potential threat a year before it happened, yet Isreal did not act on it.

Points one and four. Thankfully our government is now supplying aid via the UN.

Thankfully the UK is undergoing a defence review, lead by a former adviser to John Bolton. And a former secretary general of NATO.
Fukfacewillie · 56-60, M
Remember Singapore!
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SandWitch · 26-30, F
STOP voting for conservative political parties! Conservatives are the scourge of modern society. When you vote conservative, you are voting for life as you know it to remain as a status quo, non-progressive existence. Conservative agendas will also cause life as you know it to go backwards, like has happening in the USA after Trump and his far-right conservative wing of the Republican party took the USA back into the dark ages.
SandWitch · 26-30, F
@Burnley123
Okay, that's fine, I'll just let you run with your opinion then.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
@SandWitch Thanks. I'm grateful for your permission!
SandWitch · 26-30, F
@Burnley123
No problem. Anytime you ever need anything, just bring it to me and I'll make it happen for you. Cheers!
SandWitch · 26-30, F
As long as the oldest countries get a senior's discount, I don't see a problem with it.
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