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SatanBurger · 36-40, F
They're Christians and Catholics, they lie constantly it's what they do. They been doing that since Constantine and Roman Empire days quite literally. You become world religion and you just get weird, and others pay for it, for centuries.
I should clarify that I think all Abrahamic religions are just weird in general though.
I should clarify that I think all Abrahamic religions are just weird in general though.
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trollslayer · 46-50, M
The american lie that was told to countless school children over many generations is that North America was a mostly an uninhabited continent and Native peoples refused to assimilate an “civilize”, instead choosing to fight the European settlers, so they were relegated to reservations. We know today that is simply false.
Israel teaches a similar premise - that no country really claimed that land, so European Jews moved back to their homeland and valiantly fought off all those who attacked them. Most of the world knows that as not true (and those people are often mislabeled as antisemites).
The reality is that there were a million or more Arabs already living there, and the Jewish settlers scared them into leaving through acts of terror and massacre very similar to what Hamas did on Oct 7th. This is verifiable historical fact.
But now we have a situation where Israel has existed for 80 years with generations being born there, and at this point asking them to leave would be immoral.
*if* israel wants to live side by side in peace (which i don’t know that many israelis do), they must first come to grips with the truth of their own history. People don’t always fight israel simply because they “hate jews”. Hamas and hesbollah happened for a reason - and until that reason is addressed the fighting will continue.
Israel teaches a similar premise - that no country really claimed that land, so European Jews moved back to their homeland and valiantly fought off all those who attacked them. Most of the world knows that as not true (and those people are often mislabeled as antisemites).
The reality is that there were a million or more Arabs already living there, and the Jewish settlers scared them into leaving through acts of terror and massacre very similar to what Hamas did on Oct 7th. This is verifiable historical fact.
But now we have a situation where Israel has existed for 80 years with generations being born there, and at this point asking them to leave would be immoral.
*if* israel wants to live side by side in peace (which i don’t know that many israelis do), they must first come to grips with the truth of their own history. People don’t always fight israel simply because they “hate jews”. Hamas and hesbollah happened for a reason - and until that reason is addressed the fighting will continue.
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LeopoldBloom · M
@Reason10 The Native Americans learned about scalping from Europeans.
Burnley123 · 41-45, M
It's an excellent post and very long. I'm going to quibble about a few things.
[quote]Isn’t it funny that no Islamic empire is among the top 5 biggest empires by land mass?[/quote]
Though landmass isn't everything. The Ottoman, Persian and Arab empires were absolutely great powers of their day. Though, I believe that the latter wasn't Islamic. The Mongols/Goldern Horde also conquered a vast landmass.
You are correct that the Ottomans were [i]relatively[/i] benign as imperialists. Also, the period of the Crusades was marked by much greater brutality and zealotry from Christians than from Muslims.
The reason why Christian nations conquered the most people was because Europe advanced technologically more than the rest of the world from at least the 17th century onwards. Also, competition between nations and the promise of riches abroad made it economically beneficial to conquer people outside Europe. Sure Christianity was used as justification but if hadn't been there, they would have invented something else. I don't see it as to do with Christianity but the 'logic' of capitalism coupled with aggressive nationalism.
That history absolutely affects the now. I completely agree that Israel is a modern settler-colonialist state that is doing what the Brits did to native Americans and the Aboriginees, just with F-16s, not rifles or muskets.
[quote]Isn’t it funny that no Islamic empire is among the top 5 biggest empires by land mass?[/quote]
Though landmass isn't everything. The Ottoman, Persian and Arab empires were absolutely great powers of their day. Though, I believe that the latter wasn't Islamic. The Mongols/Goldern Horde also conquered a vast landmass.
You are correct that the Ottomans were [i]relatively[/i] benign as imperialists. Also, the period of the Crusades was marked by much greater brutality and zealotry from Christians than from Muslims.
The reason why Christian nations conquered the most people was because Europe advanced technologically more than the rest of the world from at least the 17th century onwards. Also, competition between nations and the promise of riches abroad made it economically beneficial to conquer people outside Europe. Sure Christianity was used as justification but if hadn't been there, they would have invented something else. I don't see it as to do with Christianity but the 'logic' of capitalism coupled with aggressive nationalism.
That history absolutely affects the now. I completely agree that Israel is a modern settler-colonialist state that is doing what the Brits did to native Americans and the Aboriginees, just with F-16s, not rifles or muskets.
sree251 · 41-45, M
@Moon3624 [quote] ’m actually 20 years old
Thank you for your kind words though
I really hope my age does not deter anyone from taking what I say seriously
Sometimes people will not engage with me because of my age [/quote]
Forgive me for my doubts. I am American. Even though we do have some very smart people, the 20 year old American is an absolute dud.
Your familiarity with cultures in Islamic countries around he world is impressive. I concur with your opinion: though people may all be Muslims, the differences in their respective cultures are stark. I have been warmly invited into the prayer hall of a mosque by an Imam in Korea, the way a Christian minister in a church. would without fuss; and yet, a non- Muslim is not allowed to step foot into the same sanctum in Malaysia or Indonesia even if he had performed the ablutions.
I have met Saudis, a couple of women doctors (MDs). They came across as intelligent as any American woman professional I know, and just as self-confident even though they were dressed in Muslim garb. This idea that women in Islamic countries are suppressed is false.
Thank you for your kind words though
I really hope my age does not deter anyone from taking what I say seriously
Sometimes people will not engage with me because of my age [/quote]
Forgive me for my doubts. I am American. Even though we do have some very smart people, the 20 year old American is an absolute dud.
Your familiarity with cultures in Islamic countries around he world is impressive. I concur with your opinion: though people may all be Muslims, the differences in their respective cultures are stark. I have been warmly invited into the prayer hall of a mosque by an Imam in Korea, the way a Christian minister in a church. would without fuss; and yet, a non- Muslim is not allowed to step foot into the same sanctum in Malaysia or Indonesia even if he had performed the ablutions.
I have met Saudis, a couple of women doctors (MDs). They came across as intelligent as any American woman professional I know, and just as self-confident even though they were dressed in Muslim garb. This idea that women in Islamic countries are suppressed is false.
LeopoldBloom · M
@sree251 That's correct. So referring to Israel as a "colony" isn't accurate.
There are two types of colonies. One type is where the empire seeks to expand. The US and Canada would be examples of this. The other type is where the empire seeks to extract resources. Ghana and India would be examples. The first type tend to be prosperous while the second type generally isn't, or at least has serious obstacles to prosperity.
It should be obvious that Israel was no more a colony of the UK than it was a colony of the Ottoman Empire, as it fits neither of the above two types. However, Israel's settlements in the West Bank would qualify as the first type of colony.
Even though Israel wasn't a colony, it achieved its independence in the early part of the wave of decolonization that began after World War Two (which included India and Pakistan) and continued to 1977 with the independence of Djibouti. I don't count Spanish Sahara as that area was simply transferred from Spain to Morocco, or new countries like Eritrea, South Sudan, and Namibia which were created out of other African countries well after the end of European colonization. If Israel hadn't achieved independence in 1948, it would have sometime in the next decade or two as the UK wasn't going to hang onto the Mandate much longer no matter what.
There are two types of colonies. One type is where the empire seeks to expand. The US and Canada would be examples of this. The other type is where the empire seeks to extract resources. Ghana and India would be examples. The first type tend to be prosperous while the second type generally isn't, or at least has serious obstacles to prosperity.
It should be obvious that Israel was no more a colony of the UK than it was a colony of the Ottoman Empire, as it fits neither of the above two types. However, Israel's settlements in the West Bank would qualify as the first type of colony.
Even though Israel wasn't a colony, it achieved its independence in the early part of the wave of decolonization that began after World War Two (which included India and Pakistan) and continued to 1977 with the independence of Djibouti. I don't count Spanish Sahara as that area was simply transferred from Spain to Morocco, or new countries like Eritrea, South Sudan, and Namibia which were created out of other African countries well after the end of European colonization. If Israel hadn't achieved independence in 1948, it would have sometime in the next decade or two as the UK wasn't going to hang onto the Mandate much longer no matter what.
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basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
I'd like to add that they forget there are Palestinian Christians, not to mention Lebanese Maronite Christians, Greek Christians and Armenian Apostolic Christians in the area.
I don't know if you've seen, but Israel is also trying to force the Armenian Christians out of Jerusalem, despite them having a continuous presence there since circa 301 A.D.
I don't know if you've seen, but Israel is also trying to force the Armenian Christians out of Jerusalem, despite them having a continuous presence there since circa 301 A.D.
Reason10 · 61-69, M
@basilfawlty89 d[quote][quote]on't know if you've seen, but Israel is also trying to force the Armenian Christians out of Jerusalem, despite them having a continuous presence there since circa 301 A.D.[/quote][/quote]
Produce proof of that.
So far, Israel is DEFENDING ITSELF against the raghead animals who attacked it last October.
Weren't you paying attention?
Produce proof of that.
So far, Israel is DEFENDING ITSELF against the raghead animals who attacked it last October.
Weren't you paying attention?
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N@t w@rth the read when the auth@r can't use their full w@rds.
Moon3624 · 18-21, F
@HootyTheNightOwl
I’d use “wørds “ instead of “w@rds” same for not and worth
Cuz @ definitely looks like an “a”
But nice try tho but
You can never beat the original 😎.
If my post is not worth ur read that’s totally fine
I could care less
Do I even know u ?
My world with you 🌍
My world without you 🌍
I appreciate u telling me that such writing styling bothers you tho
I might take it into account in fururistic posts especially considering the elderly who might get confused
Relax , lay back and enjoy life
I’d use “wørds “ instead of “w@rds” same for not and worth
Cuz @ definitely looks like an “a”
But nice try tho but
You can never beat the original 😎.
If my post is not worth ur read that’s totally fine
I could care less
Do I even know u ?
My world with you 🌍
My world without you 🌍
I appreciate u telling me that such writing styling bothers you tho
I might take it into account in fururistic posts especially considering the elderly who might get confused
Relax , lay back and enjoy life
@Moon3624 I'm sure that more of the world would appreciate you actually using your proper words rather than that nonsense - especially those who happen to be autistic and dyslexic.
Moon3624 · 18-21, F
LeopoldBloom · M
If Palestinians are entitled to self-determination, so are Jews.
basilfawlty89 · 31-35, M
@LeopoldBloom but Jewish people have self determination. Do Palestinians? Last I checked more land has been "settled" in the West Bank the last few months. Call me names if you let me, but I find it ridiculous that a family of Palestinians who've lived on their home for centuries can get evicted and their land taken by someone who a year ago converted to Judaism.
LeopoldBloom · M
@basilfawlty89 Palestinians should have self-determination. But they can't have Israel. The question of the Jewish state's existence should be off the table, same as questioning the existence of Ghana or Paraguay or Bhutan or any other country.
Israel's settlement policy is a disaster not just because it evicts Palestinians from what could eventually be a Palestinian state, but also because it adds another complication to any future agreement. In addition to the new state's borders, who controls Jerusalem, security, and what happens to the Palestinian refugees in other countries, now we have to figure out what happens to the West Bank settlers, too.
Don't be so sure that Palestinians have been there for "centuries." Many Palestinians are descended from Arabs who migrated to the area from the surrounding countries around the same time European Jews began arriving in the late 19th century. That doesn't make them illegitimate, but it's incorrect to characterize this conflict as anything similar to the US Army vs. Geronimo. Both sides are composed of indigenous and immigrants, and both have a right to the same land.
Israel's settlement policy is a disaster not just because it evicts Palestinians from what could eventually be a Palestinian state, but also because it adds another complication to any future agreement. In addition to the new state's borders, who controls Jerusalem, security, and what happens to the Palestinian refugees in other countries, now we have to figure out what happens to the West Bank settlers, too.
Don't be so sure that Palestinians have been there for "centuries." Many Palestinians are descended from Arabs who migrated to the area from the surrounding countries around the same time European Jews began arriving in the late 19th century. That doesn't make them illegitimate, but it's incorrect to characterize this conflict as anything similar to the US Army vs. Geronimo. Both sides are composed of indigenous and immigrants, and both have a right to the same land.
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trollslayer · 46-50, M
@Moon3624 Excellent. I don't agree 100% with everything in your post, but I appreciate that it is well thought out and adds to the discussion.
I feel that the Jewish population is so traumatized by the Holocaust and various stories from history that they cling to the "never again" mantra as an excuse to demand different treatment. I'm not necessarily faulting this - I am calling it for what it is. Netanyahu's tweet that you posted is quite contradictory. Claim you are not a settlement colony, but then make a very ethnocentric admission that you are "Western civilization" in an area that is CLEARLY NOT THE WEST.
And I find it odd that the whole "birthright" thing is not more often seen for what it is. You can't say on one hand that you give special preference for Jewish ancestry, and on the other hand claim to be a Democracy of equal rights. The argument they make is "there are arab/muslim israelis too". Well, do they get to go on a birthright and make aliah?
I feel that the Jewish population is so traumatized by the Holocaust and various stories from history that they cling to the "never again" mantra as an excuse to demand different treatment. I'm not necessarily faulting this - I am calling it for what it is. Netanyahu's tweet that you posted is quite contradictory. Claim you are not a settlement colony, but then make a very ethnocentric admission that you are "Western civilization" in an area that is CLEARLY NOT THE WEST.
And I find it odd that the whole "birthright" thing is not more often seen for what it is. You can't say on one hand that you give special preference for Jewish ancestry, and on the other hand claim to be a Democracy of equal rights. The argument they make is "there are arab/muslim israelis too". Well, do they get to go on a birthright and make aliah?
Moon3624 · 18-21, F
@trollslayer
Ur right but I wanna comment on something
“ I feel that the Jewish population is so traumatized by the Holocaust and various stories from history that they cling to the "never again" mantra as an excuse to demand different treatment”
There are a lot of anti Israel Jews
Also majority of Zionists are evangelical Christians. The Zionist makeup is majority Christian.
And honestly Jews were not the only victims. Historically speaking , many people have been genøcided and oppressed including by Jews.
A lot of people also forget that Jews were pioneering in the slavery industry .
If what’s happened/happening to Palestinians is done to Germans instead I’d be a tiny bit more understanding .
Either way
I don’t see how the holocaust has anything to do with the issue of Palestine since it precedes the holocaust
But if you wanna be understanding
by all means let them ethnically cleanse ur people and give them ur land don’t dump ur European guilt on other people please .
Ur right but I wanna comment on something
“ I feel that the Jewish population is so traumatized by the Holocaust and various stories from history that they cling to the "never again" mantra as an excuse to demand different treatment”
There are a lot of anti Israel Jews
Also majority of Zionists are evangelical Christians. The Zionist makeup is majority Christian.
And honestly Jews were not the only victims. Historically speaking , many people have been genøcided and oppressed including by Jews.
A lot of people also forget that Jews were pioneering in the slavery industry .
If what’s happened/happening to Palestinians is done to Germans instead I’d be a tiny bit more understanding .
Either way
I don’t see how the holocaust has anything to do with the issue of Palestine since it precedes the holocaust
But if you wanna be understanding
by all means let them ethnically cleanse ur people and give them ur land don’t dump ur European guilt on other people please .
trollslayer · 46-50, M
@Moon3624 Displaced aggression. It's like when you date someone whose ex was abusive to them. They see their ex in your face, and treat you like an enemy.
My view is that the nazi "holocaust" was the culmination of a system that existed in Europe, primarily eastern Europe, for decades prior to the Nazis. The "Balfour declaration" was probably the UK's answer to the "Jewish Problem", in the sense that if we support a homeland for Jewish people they will quit bothering everyone else. It wasn't "we are such good people we are helping the Jews get their own country" as much as "have some land we couldn't care about and then go away". I don't think the international support really showed up in force until after WWII. The "western" world as Bibi calls it, saw (and sees) Israel as a "settler colony", because they viewed (and view) the Arabs in the region much like they viewed native peoples elsewhere - that they area "uncivilized", "3rd world", "tribal", etc. I think many Christians see this as a spread of "civilization" to an area they think is "uncivilized". You see this in the language being used today: "Support Israel they are the only Democracy in the middle east!". It's really just ethnocentrism.
My view is that the nazi "holocaust" was the culmination of a system that existed in Europe, primarily eastern Europe, for decades prior to the Nazis. The "Balfour declaration" was probably the UK's answer to the "Jewish Problem", in the sense that if we support a homeland for Jewish people they will quit bothering everyone else. It wasn't "we are such good people we are helping the Jews get their own country" as much as "have some land we couldn't care about and then go away". I don't think the international support really showed up in force until after WWII. The "western" world as Bibi calls it, saw (and sees) Israel as a "settler colony", because they viewed (and view) the Arabs in the region much like they viewed native peoples elsewhere - that they area "uncivilized", "3rd world", "tribal", etc. I think many Christians see this as a spread of "civilization" to an area they think is "uncivilized". You see this in the language being used today: "Support Israel they are the only Democracy in the middle east!". It's really just ethnocentrism.
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