Americans, be proud of your country for its Ukraine support

US cops a lot of flack - but without them now Ukraine would have struggled. Great job.
Other NATO members' support has been very mixed. Some wishy-washy.

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Burnley123 · 41-45, M

I'm a British leftist (as I think you know) and I find myself weirdly in agreement with my own Conservative Government on this foreign policy issue.

I have very mixed feelings about the sanctions aimed at targeting Russian civilians. I'm not per-say against it as a strategy without the existence of better options. The Ukrainian people are suffering much more and anything to leverage ending the war is worth considering. The one caveat is that I think my government could do more to go after pro-Putin elites in London. Abramovich has been got but there are many less high profile Russian oligarchs, some of who have donated to the Tory party.

I also support NATO arming the Ukrainians. When your back is against the war, then you need to get help from anywhere you can. If I agree with Sandinistas getting arms from the USSR during the contra-war, then I support this.

Where Maltese Falcon Punch is correct is that the actions of the US and Britain do not have benign intentions. It is about power and rational self-interest. NATO (or America and Britain) is an imperial power and seeks to expand its influence. It's not being done for humanitarian reasons. Russia is also an imperialist and a more brutal one.

This just happens to be a time in which what is in NATO's self-interest also happens to be the morally correct thing to do. Britain entered WW2 because it didn't want one country dominating Europe and that had been a primary motivating factor behind British foreign policy since at least Napoleon's time. That it was against the evil of NAZI Germany meant that it was also morally the right thing to do, though it's not the primary reason why it happened.

So for me, praising a US (or British) foreign policy decision misses the point. These things don't happen because of a change in ethics, just a change of circumstances including a greater evil.

Abstraction · 61-69, M

@Burnley123 I don't think it misses the point. I think it is the point. I'm not naive about foreign policies and the history of US foreign policy since WWII including Nicaragua. I think the support of Ukraine deserves recognition since I've voiced my criticism so many times on other issues. It sounds like I'm disagreeing with you but I don't think i am.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Abstraction Perhaps it's just a question of emphasis.

I do also think that it was wrong to try to expand NATO eastwards, not that any of that forgives Russian actiions. As soon as the invasion happened, supporting the Ukrainian people is the only right thing to do.

This view puts me at odds with some other socialists. Whilst they are not defending Putin, they certainly are ignoring the agency and national self-determination rights of the Ukrainian people.

Their's is an anti-imperist struggle. There is more than one empire.

Abstraction · 61-69, M

@Burnley123 My work in overseas aid is in the shadows and the cracks of these empires from multiple sides. Many of those who do the damage are also the donors as it keeps their doors open to continue to exploit.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Abstraction That's a very honest take on NGO work from someone on the inside. Not that any of this diminishes the real human good that your people's work does.

We live in a messed up world and have to deal with it as it is, not hiow we want it to be. Doing a small amount of real good within a rigged system is not nothing.

Speaking of which, I'm glad the Aussie Labor Party finally managed to get rid of Morrison.

Abstraction · 61-69, M

@Burnley123 Oh my goodness. I would be in NZ now if Morrison had won again. Toxic, corrupt fossil fuel party have been decimated by 'teal' independents who stand for climate, women, anti-corruption and everything the liberals thought they were getting away with. The good thing too is Greens hold the balance in the senate and with the clear mandate for raising Labor's over-cautious climate action target.

Burnley123 · 41-45, M

@Abstraction I think your Labor Party is very cautious, as is mine at the moment. Tbh, Starmer is even worse whereas I think Albo does actually care about the issues despite his minimalist apporach. Starmer is Blair without charisma. I think it's a great thing the Greens have the balance of power.

I had a laugh when their party leader said 'Google it mate,' in response to that stupid gotcha question.

I've also seen those Juice Media honest government ads. They seem to be a brilliant low budget count-weight to the Murdoch press and they must have a big role in getting the youth vote engaged.

Abstraction · 61-69, M

@Burnley123

Labor were so shocked in the previous election they decided to have almost no policy differences. They agreed on everything except a few key policies. Woeful to watch, but it was to keep ammunition away from Murdoch, etc.
Rupert Murdoch has done more damage to society and western democracy than anyone else in my lifetime across Aus, UK, US. Taught generations of left wing voters to despise the poor and follow the right wing. This election is up yours, Murdoch.